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JF-17 Related Discussion - 2011

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Posted · Report post

Thanks for the update pshamim.

Can you please elaborate on the funding - if the chinese government agrees the soft loans, does this mean that pakistan will get half the total sum in hard cash from any deal? or will this money from sales off-set the amount pak ows china for the current planes?

thanks

ndad

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Posted · Report post

Any info on whether the interest generated is for the PAF version of the JF-17 or the Chinese version. I'm assuming PAC Kamra will be making a seperate pitch for sales than CATIC? Big draw card could be the western avionics.

There are no western avionics in the thunder - the only option was the french and that got rejected due to the french being, well, french.

Lets hope that the current chinese version which seems suitable for PAF needs is sold - parts of which are being made in pak also.

ndad

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Posted · Report post

Any info on whether the interest generated is for the PAF version of the JF-17 or the Chinese version. I'm assuming PAC Kamra will be making a seperate pitch for sales than CATIC? Big draw card could be the western avionics.

AFAIK CATIC and PAC have a joined marketing team for JF-17, very similar to the K-8 arrangement in the past.

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Posted · Report post

Thanks for the update pshamim.

Can you please elaborate on the funding - if the chinese government agrees the soft loans, does this mean that pakistan will get half the total sum in hard cash from any deal? or will this money from sales off-set the amount pak ows china for the current planes?

thanks

ndad

Does not make any difference. Pakistan gets its share from the sale proceeds.

Munir Saheb, No news on the Dual. But the 2nd 50 may have the IRST, a higher engine thrust(?) and some added stealthiness. We will have to wait for a little while longer before PAF finalizes details.

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Posted · Report post

Does not make any difference. Pakistan gets its share from the sale proceeds.

Munir Saheb, No news on the Dual. But the 2nd 50 may have the IRST, a higher engine thrust(?) and some added stealthiness. We will have to wait for a little while longer before PAF finalizes details.

Thanks again - do we know anymore about the integration of weapons? Has the SD 10/A debate been settled? has testing been completed? Furthermore, at one airshow (farnborough i think) it was shown with the c802, has this also been tested and now integrated?

thanks in advance

ndad

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Thanks again - do we know anymore about the integration of weapons? Has the SD 10/A debate been settled? has testing been completed? Furthermore, at one airshow (farnborough i think) it was shown with the c802, has this also been tested and now integrated?

thanks in advance

ndad

Believe that SD-10 (PL-12) will be a standard weapon on Thunders. C-802 may be integrated with mission specific JF-17

An after thought, why we still designate Thunder as JF-17 which was supposed to have Western avionics and weapons. When this aircraft is still all Chinese why do we designate as JF-17 or anything produced in China will be called FC-1 and JF-17 is Pak produced.

Edited by pshamim

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Posted · Report post

Believe that SD-10 (PL-12) will be a standard weapon on Thunders. C-802 may be integrated with mission specific JF-17

An after thought, why we still designate Thunder as JF-17 which was supposed to have Western avionics and weapons. When this aircraft is still all Chinese why do we designate as JF-17 or anything produced in China will be called FC-1 and JF-17 is Pak produced.

Sorry to labour the point, but for the sake of clarity, can you confirm that the SD10 is integrated and ready for use on the thunder?

as for the name, your argument is valid, but it seems thats the way PAF wants to go. Afterall, the J10/FC20 is also all chinese but the name is still different.

thanks

ndad

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Posted · Report post

There are no western avionics in the thunder - the only option was the french and that got rejected due to the french being, well, french.

Lets hope that the current chinese version which seems suitable for PAF needs is sold - parts of which are being made in pak also.

ndad

The communication equipment, VHF/UHF radio and the data link are western in the PAF JF-17, rest of the things are Chinese and PAF has integrated the western communication system with the Chinese avionics suite.

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Posted · Report post

There are no western avionics in the thunder - the only option was the french and that got rejected due to the french being, well, french.

Lets hope that the current chinese version which seems suitable for PAF needs is sold - parts of which are being made in pak also.

ndad

The communication equipment, VHF/UHF radio and the data link are western in the PAF JF-17, rest of the things are Chinese and PAF has integrated the western communication system with the Chinese avionics suite.

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Posted · Report post

The communication equipment, VHF/UHF radio and the data link are western in the PAF JF-17, rest of the things are Chinese and PAF has integrated the western communication system with the Chinese avionics suite.

If the datalink is western, does this mean that the thunder can communicate directly with the eriye(sp!)?

thanks

ndad

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Posted · Report post

If the data-link is Western (Link 16?), why did the CAS suggest that data from JF-17s will be routed to a land based early warning center and then routed to the F-16s, with a slight delay?

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Posted · Report post

If the data-link is Western (Link 16?), why did the CAS suggest that data from JF-17s will be routed to a land based early warning center and then routed to the F-16s, with a slight delay?

Yep. thats the point i was trying to make. My understand (limited as it may be) was that there would be ground stations which would relay info from the chinese awacs, thunder and FC20 and that would then be passed onto the western aircraft and eriye and vice versa.

ndad

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Posted · Report post

If the datalink is western, does this mean that the thunder can communicate directly with the eriye(sp!)?

thanks

ndad

If the data-link is Western (Link 16?), why did the CAS suggest that data from JF-17s will be routed to a land based early warning center and then routed to the F-16s, with a slight delay?

Yep. thats the point i was trying to make. My understand (limited as it may be) was that there would be ground stations which would relay info from the chinese awacs, thunder and FC20 and that would then be passed onto the western aircraft and eriye and vice versa.

ndad

Guys, you know there are few things which can not be wide open, there are things which need to be kept to ourselves as it raises lot of questions, especially since it involves western equipment whose manufacturers are not easy at knowing that their equipment would be coming in contact with the Chinese or things like that.

GCS would still be needed as both the platforms are not full fledged command centers, they are AEW&C with limited command and control capability in the air, rest of the functions of command and control would be done at the ground stations and further communicated.

The communication equipment in Thunders and upgraded Mirages & F-7s, the T shaped antenna are from a western, rather european company, with whom we had past dealings too and other things have been bought from them too. See, the JF-17s each and everything has been based on the MIL-STD protocols, thus it can communicate and be integrated with anything which is based on the MIL-STD protocol can be integrated with JF-17s.

So, even if JF-17 & F-16s are able to communicate with each other, it will not be told officially, same case with the ZDK-03 and its ability to communicate with Erieyes or even F-16s.

Just think logically, that if something is based on the MIL-STD protocols and if they have western communication equipment, what will stop them from communicating with each other.

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Posted · Report post

I havent been able to find any confirmation about JF-17 wont be able to communicate with the Saab-2000 Erieye other then some rumors based on theories not official word.

It has been long known that PAF will not be able to data link the F-16 with rest of the fleet especially the ones developed with Chinese help but so far i am unable to find any information regarding Saab-2000 Erieye not able to datalink with JF-17s. Remember Saab Erieye is offered for sale with its own data which is also used for ground stations and can some one imagine PAF ordering 6 Saab-2000 Erieye as its only AEW&C which wont be able to datalink with all of its fighter jets but few F-16s?

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Guys, you know there are few things which can not be wide open, there are things which need to be kept to ourselves as it raises lot of questions, especially since it involves western equipment whose manufacturers are not easy at knowing that their equipment would be coming in contact with the Chinese or things like that.

GCS would still be needed as both the platforms are not full fledged command centers, they are AEW&C with limited command and control capability in the air, rest of the functions of command and control would be done at the ground stations and further communicated.

The communication equipment in Thunders and upgraded Mirages & F-7s, the T shaped antenna are from a western, rather european company, with whom we had past dealings too and other things have been bought from them too. See, the JF-17s each and everything has been based on the MIL-STD protocols, thus it can communicate and be integrated with anything which is based on the MIL-STD protocol can be integrated with JF-17s.

So, even if JF-17 & F-16s are able to communicate with each other, it will not be told officially, same case with the ZDK-03 and its ability to communicate with Erieyes or even F-16s.

Just think logically, that if something is based on the MIL-STD protocols and if they have western communication equipment, what will stop them from communicating with each other.

Taimikhan,

Good post. However I do want to point out that having the Chinese platforms and the Western platforms talking to each other indirectly (or through a medium) does not mean the PAF would require a "Ground Control". Both of the AEW platforms are capable of full command, control and Intercept. Usually GC has a connotation that the picture in the air would be developed on the ground from inputs received from various nodes in the air and then this information will then be used to conduct vectoring and interception duties. The reality is that this is the exact architecture that PAF is trying to move away from and reduce the much talked about delay in the "sensor to shooter grid". The way this is to be accomplished by the PAF is by maintaining full Command Control and Intercept capability in the air and only use a "ground relay" station/s for moving the data between the Chinese and Swedish AEW platforms. The data can obviously be sent around on the ground to various terminals including (hopefully) those of the sister services. One of the biggest indications of this plan was given by the previous CAS when he said that since Pakistan does not have any "offensive" designs, which would require direct communication between all aircraft and AEW platforms (think expeditionary forces or power projection here), PAF's focus is on putting all of the assets together to develop the big picture in the air over Pakistan by relaying the information through relay stations on the ground.

Just think logically, that if something is based on the MIL-STD protocols and if they have western communication equipment, what will stop them from communicating with each other.

This is an absolutely valid point, however I think the issue for the PAF becomes that of funding the integration work themselves because the Westerners and Chinese may not like each other snooping around their own hardware. If this can be brought in-house (PAF and PAC definitely have set the precedence for this type of work and have the skills to do so), I think what you say is absolutely possible.

Edited by SSAAD

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Posted · Report post

To be honest the Link 16 is antique if compared to the datalinks the Erieye uses. I think the link 16 will be the weakest but since it is used by many it can be a decent replacement in case of foreign parties are included in training/war. I personally think that groundstations are major part of Pakistani defence. So down/uploading from various systems is part of the approach. And with so many sensors and calculation power you better use that. The delay is not a real problem if you keep BVR only engagement. If WVR then you do have your own radar and linkage to wingman(s). Besides that the passive sensors are pretty good these days. Just take MAWS whig can detect launches from long distances.

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Posted · Report post

The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex website has been updated. Note the updated specs on JF-17:

Thrust to Weight Ratio: 1.01 approx

Maximum Engine Thrust: 19,180 lb

http://www.pac.org.pk/jf17.html

Interesting. Explains the energetic display at Zuhai recently! What has changed, the engine got more thrust or the plane is lighter than what was originally reported (ie sandbagging on its specs with regards to weight ) ?

With composites, this can only get better!

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Posted · Report post

The Pakistan Aeronautical Complex website has been updated. Note the updated specs on JF-17:

Thrust to Weight Ratio: 1.01 approx

Maximum Engine Thrust: 19,180 lb

http://www.pac.org.pk/jf17.html

It also says single piece canopy. Not sure, if its an update or it was there before. I would take that single piece canopy means something like F-16/F-22/J-20 canopy?

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Posted · Report post

New Designed Flight Control System

Composite Flight Control System comprising conventional controls with stability augmentation in roll and yaw axis and fly by wire in pitch axis

Simple autopilot

Control system of lift increasing device, leading edge slats / flap and trailing edge flaps will be an automatic control system referring to air speed and angle of attack for improving aircraft maneuvering.

Isn't the JF.17 using a quad FBW as a couple of people on this forum said that problems were encountered with the Analogue FBW.

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Posted · Report post

Saw JF-17s flying over Peshawar. Was a great sight.

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Posted · Report post

Saw JF-17s flying over Peshawar. Was a great sight.

Could you see what they were carrying? how many were flying?

thanks

ndad

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Posted · Report post

2 clean and 2 with wingfueltanks. Other forum has the pics.

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Posted · Report post

2 clean and 2 with wingfueltanks. Other forum has the pics.

which forum?

thanks

ndad

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