PAF related discussion: May - August 2010

371 posts in this topic

Posted · Report post

During the same period, the United States also plans to reimburse about $2.3 billion Pakistan spent while fighting terrorists along the Afghan border. Of these, $600 million will be quickly transferred to Pakistan while the rest will be reimbursed by September 2011, when the current US fiscal year ends.

So, Pakistan has already spent 2.3 in the "War on Terror", but she will not get repaid fully until Sept 2011 ?!! That is close to 18months from now ... TOTALLY unacceptable.. really shameful. Pakistan cannot afford to extend such a credit line to the US for so long...

Whats with the hold up?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

So, Pakistan has already spent 2.3 in the "War on Terror", but she will not get repaid fully until Sept 2011 ?!! That is close to 18months from now ... TOTALLY unacceptable.. really shameful. Pakistan cannot afford to extend such a credit line to the US for so long...

Whats with the hold up?

Gaf

I really think you are missing the bigger picture here.Yes, reimbursment has been slow and even GoP have admitted some of this is due to Pakistan's own fault. (slow processes, lack of receipts, holding up visas for US accounting personnel), we should not be too quick to blame others.

Even if US did not remiburse us, it is a war we have to fight!

Anyway, the news report is the closest the US has come without explicitly saying so, that they understand Pakistan must have conventional weapons to deter India and are willing to provide these.

Kayani must have done a good job in Washington.

If, from our own funds, we can match every $1 in aid with $1 that would give us approx $7.6 Billion to spend on US weaponry in 2010/2011. Assuming $1.5 Billion in FMF and $2.3 Billion in CSF reimburments.

Now that we have very senior DoD, State Department and White House officials openly saying this we need to move quickly to secure the best deals in equipment we can.

In all probability, we will have 6 more years of Obama and we have aid gauranteed for 7 more years.

Hopefully we would have already started the process in long term planning and working closley with US to get the best deals.

Navy (despite what people may think of current CNS) has done a very good job.

Essentially with all the P-3Cs and OHPs it is buying it is getting the actual equipment free via EDA, then using FMF to pay for the upgrades.

End result? 10 P-3Cs upgraded to "very close to US Navy current standard" and 8 OHPs that will be upgraded. All of this at no cost to Pakistan. That alone is a force larger then most Navies and Naval Air Arms!

With the future aid in pipeline and with a sympathetic US government Pak Army and Air Force should now follow PN.

1) Order the 18 Block 52 options right now

2) We are alrwady getting another 14 surplus A/Bs.Try and find another 18 more and upgrade all to MLU

3) All the above will eventually give us 6 F-16 Block 52 and MLU squadrons

4) Quickly start training pilots in US on Apache and order 36 of these for 3 attack squadrons, quickly phase out AH-1F and cancel AH-1Z order

5) Push for purchase of Patriot PAC-3

6) Push for purchase of AIM-120C7 or AIM-120D if available after we complete purchse of 500 AIM-120C5

7) If US still refuse Reaper push for assistance in getting Hellfire integrated in Pakistan UAVs

8) Ask for another 120 M109 SPHs to add to 240 we have. We already have a big superiority in SPH over India thanks to additional batch US provided to us via EDA

9) Get another 26 Bell 412 EPs and eventually replace all Alouttes and old UH-1s. Pak Army has far to many different chopper types. Standadise on just 4 types. Euceurial as light helicopter, Bel412 as medium, MI-17 as heavy and AH-1 (followed by AH-64) as attack.

10) Finally ask for a long term committment to eventually beable to procure 32-36 F-35s to equip 2 PAF squadrons. This will not be enough to break our bank, and will leave room for us to carry on partnering with China for eventual procurment of J-XXX/J-12

I know all of the above may sound ambitious, but if the US is as serious as they say they are, then I see no problemwith this. 6 years ago on this forum I was mocked when I said I could forsee a time when PAF 2 seat Block 52s with advanced EW, CFTs, AMRAAMs and sniper pods would be patrolling our air space. In 3 months this will be the case.

If US government stays as it is and continues to follow current policy and especially if they supply India with advanced F-16/F-18 versions, we will be in a good position to demand F-35s. I dont see this being an impossibility within the next 10 years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

1) Order the 18 Block 52 options right now

2) We are alrwady getting another 14 surplus A/Bs.Try and find another 18 more and upgrade all to MLU

3) All the above will eventually give us 6 F-16 Block 52 and MLU squadrons

4) Quickly start training pilots in US on Apache and order 36 of these for 3 attack squadrons, quickly phase out AH-1F and cancel AH-1Z order

5) Push for purchase of Patriot PAC-3

6) Push for purchase of AIM-120C7 or AIM-120D if available after we complete purchse of 500 AIM-120C5

7) If US still refuse Reaper push for assistance in getting Hellfire integrated in Pakistan UAVs

8) Ask for another 120 M109 SPHs to add to 240 we have. We already have a big superiority in SPH over India thanks to additional batch US provided to us via EDA

9) Get another 26 Bell 412 EPs and eventually replace all Alouttes and old UH-1s. Pak Army has far to many different chopper types. Standadise on just 4 types. Euceurial as light helicopter, Bel412 as medium, MI-17 as heavy and AH-1 (followed by AH-64) as attack.

10) Finally ask for a long term committment to eventually beable to procure 32-36 F-35s to equip 2 PAF squadrons. This will not be enough to break our bank, and will leave room for us to carry on partnering with China for eventual procurment of J-XXX/J-12

5) and 10) are a big NO NO since India will raise a lot og ho ha over these items and USA would never introduce any platform in subcontinent that will tilt the balance in either India's or Pakistan favour and I dont think that we will ever be able to afford F35 in the long run due to cost or political reasons.

4) is interesting, can we setup maintenance and repair facilities in 6/7 years ? Why don't we stick to AH-1's and setup facilities with Iranians who have able to keep their Cobras in a working conditions by one way or the other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

1) Order the 18 Block 52 options right now

2) We are alrwady getting another 14 surplus A/Bs.Try and find another 18 more and upgrade all to MLU

3) All the above will eventually give us 6 F-16 Block 52 and MLU squadrons

4) Quickly start training pilots in US on Apache and order 36 of these for 3 attack squadrons, quickly phase out AH-1F and cancel AH-1Z order

5) Push for purchase of Patriot PAC-3

6) Push for purchase of AIM-120C7 or AIM-120D if available after we complete purchse of 500 AIM-120C5

7) If US still refuse Reaper push for assistance in getting Hellfire integrated in Pakistan UAVs

8) Ask for another 120 M109 SPHs to add to 240 we have. We already have a big superiority in SPH over India thanks to additional batch US provided to us via EDA

9) Get another 26 Bell 412 EPs and eventually replace all Alouttes and old UH-1s. Pak Army has far to many different chopper types. Standadise on just 4 types. Euceurial as light helicopter, Bel412 as medium, MI-17 as heavy and AH-1 (followed by AH-64) as attack.

10) Finally ask for a long term committment to eventually beable to procure 32-36 F-35s to equip 2 PAF squadrons. This will not be enough to break our bank, and will leave room for us to carry on partnering with China for eventual procurment of J-XXX/J-12

5) and 10) are a big NO NO since India will raise a lot og ho ha over these items and USA would never introduce any platform in subcontinent that will tilt the balance in either India's or Pakistan favour and I dont think that we will ever be able to afford F35 in the long run due to cost or political reasons.

4) is interesting, can we setup maintenance and repair facilities in 6/7 years ? Why don't we stick to AH-1's and setup facilities with Iranians who have able to keep their Cobras in a working conditions by one way or the other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

1) Order the 18 Block 52 options right now

>> Makes sense if finances allow.

2) We are alrwady getting another 14 surplus A/Bs.Try and find another 18 more and upgrade all to MLU

>> Yes absolutely if we can find good airframes.

4) Quickly start training pilots in US on Apache and order 36 of these for 3 attack squadrons, quickly phase out AH-1F and cancel AH-1Z order

>>The Apache is a very expensive platform. AH-1Z in my opinion makes more sense. PA already has familiarity with the type, the weapons suite and avionics on the 1Z match or exceed those of the current Apache.

5) Push for purchase of Patriot PAC-3

>>While others may feel we need these, I don't because I think money expended on a very limited ABM system could be better spent on other systems. After all Pakistan's BM deterrence keeps the other side in check because of their No First Use policy. Because we do not have a No First Use doctrine, they require such systems. After an exchange, such systems are pretty much useless because they cannot be deployed everywhere as they are too costly.

6) Push for purchase of AIM-120C7 or AIM-120D if available after we complete purchse of 500 AIM-120C5

>> Before placing more orders for AIM-120s, I would like to see PAF go for AIM-9x. Our standoff capability with the C-5s is better than what the IAF have. In close combat, to exploit F-16s full potential with the JHMCS, AIM-9x would be a huge boost.

7) If US still refuse Reaper push for assistance in getting Hellfire integrated in Pakistan UAVs

>> If they relent then absolutely.

8) Ask for another 120 M109 SPHs to add to 240 we have. We already have a big superiority in SPH over India thanks to additional batch US provided to us via EDA

>> Based on what I can tell, we have the envisaged number of SP units to support our strike formations. The current inventory of the M109s is sufficient for what we require. Maybe A5s to replace older A2 would be a better option if the A2s are deemed to be getting too old.

10) Finally ask for a long term commitment to eventually beable to procure 32-36 F-35s to equip 2 PAF squadrons. This will not be enough to break our bank, and will leave room for us to carry on partnering with China for eventual procurment of J-XXX/J-12

>> I agree. I think F-35 is a distant possibility but nevertheless a possibility. If the relations stay on track, we should ask for them in a couple of years.

Edited by SSAAD

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

AH-1Z is not much cheaper then Apache.Also remember,other then USMC,we willbe worlds only AH-1Z user. about 12 other nations already operate Apache.Many of these are close Pakistani allies like Saudi and UAE.

Agree with AIM-9X, completely forgot about this.

I think PAC-3 would be mainly for intercepting Indian Aircraft and not as ABM.

US is still putting alot of M109s into storage, we are already upgrading our A2s to A5 standard. Our total current fleet stands at around 320 M109s.

If we build another 300 odd Al Khalids and get another 120 odd M109s from US that will enable the raising of an entirely new armoured division. Makes sense if we have a massive infrastucture of M109, lots of trained crews and US will give us more free.

We should definately push for F-35 for a number of reasons.

1) India introducing PAK-FA soon

2) Inform US that induction of 2 squadrons would enable 4-5 PAF Mirage/JF-17 squadrons to be released for FATA fighting

3) Should US supply advanced fighters to India as MRCA winners we will need F-35 to keep balance

4) Denial of such aircraft will make PAF almost exclusivley Chinese supplied when F-16s retire

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

New-built AH-64s will likely cost $50~55mn per aircraft, and besides, it would seem the U.S. has already listed Pakistan as a potential buyer of the AH-1Z after 2015. It's certainly possible that - if relations stay on course - that the PAF will request F-35 by then, especially since the JF-17, Erieye and F-16 inductions will be nearing completion...giving PAF space to focus on new projects.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Guys the F-35 option is just to far out in the future. Finances, political situation in 2015+, besides how many nations are currently waiting to get hold of their birds? IMHO we should consider it around 2020, when the initial orders have been dealt with. Before that, focus on Chinese J-XX. Hopefully by then (2020) China should have a stealth fighter flying, a prototype atleast.

The FATA argument regarding freeing up more mirages and JF-17 for insurgencs ops, should be used to get 18 more F-16 Block 52's at a faster rate and a better price and more importantly to prioritize our order of AH-1Z's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Even if Pakistan were to invest in a Chinese 5th generation program, I don't think such a fighter will enter PAF service before 2030 or even 2035. Not only do we need to take into account the development and testing period, but also the fact that PAF will be prioritizing the FC-20 for a few years even after JF-17's complete induction. Yes, a Chinese fighter is to fly soon, but first we must recognize that this specific model may be a China-exclusive one, and that the follow-up fighter - which will be lighter and cheaper - is to be directed for export. The later model will not be available before 2020.

To close the gap, the PAF may need to pursue F-35, even as late as 2020.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

I think it will take some time before 5th ge (like PAKFA) will enter service. So take atleast a few years more for Pakistan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

I am guessing that the logic behind JSF is that it will be provided to us in military aid, right?

JSF is seeing some major cost overruns. The countries that have invested in it will be the first to get these aircrafts.

There is a long line of countries in waiting list. Once JSF is in full production is when the real cost associated to this platform will become concrete. How do respectable members see this as a possiblity in 2020 timeframe still eludes me.

The above is just one issue. Are we really paying attention to what role it will have in PAF? JSF has limitations against modern IADS in terms of stealth and is also lacking in air to air performance. Is this what we intend to field against a fleet of Pak-Fas designed for offensive counter air in numbers that will surely dwarf whatever hand me downs we get from USA?

In my humble opinion it really doesnt sound like a viable option.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

I disagree. JSF seems like the only solution we could use to help penetrate and knock out Indian air defence in first day of war.This would be its primary role. F-16/FC-10 would act as air defence.Even if we get them in 2020 0r 2030 it is a viable option that needs to be looked at, especially as this is probably the most favourable US government towards Pakistan since Reagan in 80s.

2 or 3 squadrons will be enough for viable force, but not too much that we become overdependent on it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

if PAF ever gets F-35, it will be out of Pak money not US funds just as the case for newer F-16 C/D block 52+, same as for any other new built F-16s, that be reason PAF has not gone for follow up option for 18 F-16s.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Sir, we don't need deep strike capability we already have CM, ALCM and BMs to do the job. The current and future scenarios demands battlefield air dominance and we should focus on that. We are overlooking the EW aspect, we need dedicated EW air crafts. Even if we get JSF they will still be detected by Indian AWACS in no time and with BVR capability possessed by both ends pulling another 65 like performance is out of question, atleast in my opinion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

and vis-versa with our AWAC's

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

Sir, Even if we get JSF they will still be detected by Indian AWACS in no time

No, that will not be easy unless F-35 are carrying weapons on external pylons. Trouble is that JSF can carry only 4 missile internally, and when using them, belly must be opened and then it looses its stelthiness and gives away its location. An enemy flying in groups in a high low formation, can be dangerous . Though you may shoot down the sptters flying at high altitude, you will expose the belly to the enemy aircrafts flying low to evade radar. Use of BVR by enemy will be difficult to excape from.

Edited by pshamim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

I am sorry if I sound odd but whats wrong with us? We have to make do without USA... With new development on CNN about PHHakistani Taliban, they have already sold to their nation that they are insecure in their biggest developed city because of Pakistan and rest assured we need to MOVE IN to TAKE EM OUT. What are we thinking??? Wishing from the same people we are threatened from? F-35 does not defend us, its our Eman on Allah which does. Sadly anyone who talks like it now a days is labelled as Mullah and fundamentalist. But have we forgotten what our religion told us? Strickly not to depend on these ppl for our defence. I am so heart broken to see everyone wishing for US equipment like there is no tomorrow.

Please open your eyes and see how they're talking now, how they've shifted focus from Taliban to TTP and now Taliban and Phhaakistan are named together in CNN. Yesterday a $hit hole on Fox said. They have the Chaapability thoo threaten us in NY, i certainly thhink we need to move in and take hold of their nuclear assits. Dont tell me, huhh they cant and we'll do this and that. Lets pause and see our conduct. I mean we are like its USA behind this and that. Honestly, with a person who understands the Fitnah of this time, where reality is totally opposite from what apears to be, will understand that its indeed these fanatics who are killing us by thousand cuts.

My point is, please let Allah decide for us and not USA. Lets stop assuming USA is the end of the world for our defence. I for one care a hoot what relations we have with USA, care a hoot what they offered us. I will simply want us not to be dependent on them for ANYTHING.

One year for F-16s carrot, they kill our brothers and sisters and next they'll extend the carrot to JSF and we'll let em kill us thinking ohh we are showing patience. I would urge you all to not challange Allah SWT by depending on whom he and his messanger cursed. dont forget where in Quran Allah said. Take revenge of your brothers and sisters killed. Who are we kidding showing patience. Is there a limit to it? Truth is, we are cowards, we are cowards to even say the word Jihad which is Fard on us againt such attrocities. If anyone thinks different and gives lame excuses, let them know there were ppl before them who disguised this fard of Jihad in their cowardice of patience.

May Allah grant us the eyes to see and heart to understand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Mr EH, I can understand your frustrations - but the simple fact is that the takfiri IS the enemy of Islam and our pluralistic Islamic Civilization, we have no choice but to take this war to its logical course, takfiris are like a virus - and we have to root out and destroy this disease, my own opinions have changed over the years, seeing the modus operandi of these butchers, if they are allowed to run amok we will see scenes on the scale of GIA in Algeria, were whole villages of men and women and children were slaughtered (fellow Muslims) but to the twisted and warped mind of the takfiri their murder was justified. Right now this is the fight that has to be won, our society's cannot be destroyed by these criminals. -----veritas.......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

Can we keep this PAF related please guys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted · Report post

I wonder if the following has been posted before

http://www.makepakistanbetter.com/Why_how_what_forum.asp?GroupID=5&Group_Title=Pakistan&ArticleID=5783&Article_Title=Saga%20of%20PAF%20in%20East%20Pakistan%20-%201971&ArticleFName=5782-2-22.html

Saga of PAF in East Pakistan - 1971

An informal account by Air Marshal Inam-ul-haq Khan (Retd), HJ, Former Air Officer Commanding East Pakistan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited) · Report post

I am sorry if I sound odd but whats wrong with us? We have to make do without USA...

This is precisely the thinking that has ensnared Pakistan in the crises it faces today. One would thnik at least the educated people would have learnt the lesson by now. Depending on Allah does not mean disengaging your brain. My prayer is that may Allah protect Pakistan from such fanaticism.

Edited by SyedA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This topic is now closed to further replies.