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Pak Navy related discussion: May - August 2010

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The best thing to do is to wait and see when in near future details come out in open. We all hope these ships turnout to be feasible option for PN, which like other two services, does not have any space to make a mistake in procurement, as important as frigate buying.

On a side note, any update on U boats? Looks like new political leadership has taken U turn on U boats! Somebody tell Zardari and thugs that there were kick backs involved in Greece U boats deal. That`s the only way he will agree considering U boats! :-)

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Sassad,

I remember reading an article from Janes that mentioned Turkey offering PN a variant of the GENESIS. Based on what Turkey has done with their OHPs, we can conclude the following:

1. OHP can be upgraded with proper AAW (i.e. ESSM), systems (GENESIS), etc

2. Upgrades can and have been conducted a fair period after a navy procures and commissions a frigate of this class.

3. Turkey views the upgrade as an adequate mainstay until their TF-2000 and TF-100 enter service - post 2020/2025.

4. Given that U.S. did release to Pakistan the Block-52+, AMRAAM-C5, JDAM, etc -- ESSM may not be a problem.

The only question is whether the Mk.13 will be re-installed...or maybe if two quad-cells for Harpoon Block-II can be installed instead?

Edited by FaisalK

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I don't think there will be a question of "re-install", If I'm not mistaken, the OHP is being transferred immediately to Pakistan "as is". US cannot immediately transfer the ship without spending a good deal of time removing the equipment, the lack of modification costs also indicates that the launchers are not being removed. however, I think Pakistan should look at installing the Mk.41 VLS and although there will only be eight cells, it still will give the frigate the firepower needed to take on the AAW role. if the Turks are offering the GENESIS system, then that is certainly good news, but for ease of integration of weapons systems, it will be an even better idea developing all the programming yourself so that you will have no issue installing any weapon of your liking.

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Lets also not forget PN had absolutely no problems installing Harpoons and Chinese missiles on its Type 21 frigates 15 years ago.

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Asalamo-a-laikum.

If the Mk-13 and SM-1ER or even SM-2 are not going to be coming with the frigate then we have problems in the long term because it will have no missile armament.

In that respect what would be interesting is if we managed to get the Americans to agree to paying for ripping out the entire magazine as well, and installing a larger Mk-41 VLS for the ESSM and the SM-2 in its place. I'm sure we're all appraised of the threat of Brahmos. Well the ESSM is a missile specifically designed to counter such a threat in the close to medium range zones.

We currently have no other means of successfully intercepting such a missile.

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Now, no record of Navy sinking Pakistani submarine in 1971

Josy Joseph, TNN, May 12, 2010, 02.51am IST

<a href="http://netspiderads2.indiatimes.com/ads.dll/clickthrough?slotid=36459" target="_blank"><img src="http://netspiderads2.indiatimes.com/ads.dll/photoserv?slotid=36459" border="0" width="660" height="40" alt="Advertisement"></a>

NEW DELHI: The sinking of Pakistani submarine Ghazi in the 1971 Indo-Pak war may have been one of the high points of India's first-ever emphatic military victory but there are no records available with naval authorities on how the much-celebrated feat was pulled off.

As a debate rages over a TOI report on the destruction of all records of the 1971 Bangladesh war at the Eastern Army Command headquarters in Kolkata, it transpires that naval authorities also destroyed records of the sinking of Ghazi.

The troubling finding has been thrown up by a trail of communications among the naval brass. Pakistani submarine PNS Ghazi, regarded as a major threat to India's plans to use its naval superiority, sank around midnight of December 3, 1971 off Visakhapatnam, killing all 92 on board in the initial days of the war between India and Pakistan. Indian Navy claims the submarine was destroyed by depth charges fired by its ship INS Rajput. Pakistani authorities say the submarine sank because of either an internal explosion or accidental blast of mines that the submarine itself was laying around Vizag harbour.

According to a set of naval communications made available to TOI by sources familiar with the Ghazi sinking, senior officers and those writing the official history of Navy exchanged a host of letters admitting to the fact that crucial documents of Ghazi were missing.

Immediately after Ghazi sank, Indian naval sailors had recovered several crucial documents and other items from the submarine, wreckage of which is still lying underwater off Vizag.

On June 22, 1998, Rear Admiral K Mohanrao, then chief of staff of Visakhapatnam-based Eastern Naval Command, told Vice Admiral G M Hiranandani, who was writing the official history of Navy, "All-out efforts were made to locate historical artifacts of Ghazi from various offices and organizations of this headquarters. However, regretfully, I was unable to lay my hands on many of the documents that I personally saw during my previous tenure."

Mohanrao went on to tell Hiranandani, "We are still continuing to search for old files and as and when they are located, I will send appropriate documents for your project." Mohanrao also refers to their inquiries with Commodore P S Bawa (retd), who worked with the Maritime Historical Society, to find out about the artifacts. Here also they drew a blank.

What Mohanrao's letter does not disclose is the letter written by Bawa himself in 1980. On December 20, 1980, Bawa, then a commander with the Maritime Historical Society, said, "In Virbahu, to my horror I found that all Gazi papers and signals were destroyed this year. Nothing is now available there." He was writing after a visit to Virbahu, the submarine centre at Vizag, where the documents, signals and other artifacts recovered from Ghazi were stored. His letter (MHS/23) was addressed to Vice Admiral M P Awati, the then chief of personnel at the naval headquarters.

Over the years, in the 1990s, as Vice Admiral Hiranandani sat down to write the official history of Navy, he made several efforts to get the Ghazi documents, records show. In one of his letters to the then chief of eastern naval command, Vice Admiral P S Das, he sought the track chart of the Ghazi, the official report of the diving operations on the Ghazi from December 1971 onwards and any other papers related to Ghazi. But none of it was available for the official historian of the Navy.

A retired Navy officer who saw action in 1971 said the destruction of the Ghazi papers and those of Army in Kolkata are all fitting into a larger trend, many of them suspected about Indian war history, of deliberate falsification in many instances. It is high time the real history of those past actions were revealed. "We have enough heroes," he said. "In the fog of war, many myths and false heroes may have been created and many honest ones left unsung," he admitted.

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Commander (Retd.) Muhammad Azam Khan, a research fellow at Pakistan Navy War College, argues that Pakistan Navy can equip its Khalid class of submarines with nuclear tipped cruise missiles in the next 5 years and might opt to lease a SSBN from China (XIA).

http://bit.ly/ahNX0r

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While first option is feasible i don't think that either Pakistan or China would like to face the political outcry by west resulting form the transfer of an active SSBN to PN from China. Most likely senario would be to have an SSK equipped with SLCM-N and work with Chinese help to create our own SSBN (like Indians are doing with Russian Help)

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Indians have always claimed that Indian Navy sank Pakistan Navy submarine "Ghazi" during 1971 ear. Recently, we heard that all records pertaining to sinking of the submarines were destroyed by Indian Navy. Truth is now coming out that Indian Navy naver sank the submarine but it sank due to an internal explosion during mining the water off Indian coast.

Now General Jacob, an Indian hero of 1971 war saying that Indian never sank Ghazi. Read the article below to learn the truth.

The truth behind the Navy's 'sinking' of Ghazi

2010-05-25 19:09:29

Last Updated: 2010-05-26 10:24:29

Lt General JFR Jacob, (retd), hero of the 1971 India Pakistan war, explains why the Indian Navy destroyed documents related to the sinking of the Pakistani submarine, PNS Ghazi.

Earlier this month, there were reports that all documents connected with the sinking of the Pakistani submarine PNS Ghazi during the 1971 war had been destroyed by the Indian Navy.

It is not difficult to conjecture the reasons why.

Back in November 1971, our signal intercept units had been monitoring the movements of the Ghazi on her entering the Bay of Bengal. The last intercept we got from the Ghazi was on 27 November. We had been passing on all intercepts to the Navy.

PNS Ghazi blew up due to an internal explosion while laying mines off the port of Vishakapatnam, probably at the end of November or the beginning of December 1971.

On December 3, I received a call from Vice Admiral Krishnan, Commander of the Eastern Naval Command, who said that fishermen had found some floating wreckage, and that he had gone to the site where the wreckage was found.

Among the debris was a lifebelt with 'Diablo' printed on it. Diablo was the name of the United States Navy submarine that was transferred to the Pakistan Navy and renamed Ghazi.

Krishnan said he had no doubt that the wreckage was that of the Ghazi and that the sinking of the Ghazi was an act of God. He stated that the Navy was unaware that the Ghazi had sunk. He had rewarded the fishermen who had found the wreckage. I told him that there was no threat now to the aircraft carrier INS Vikrant, which had been the prime target of the Ghazi.

On the morning of December 4, Krishnan again called me, asking if I had sent a report on the Ghazi. I replied in the negative, saying that as it was a naval matter, I had presumed that he had done so. He seemed relieved and told me that I should forget our conversation of the previous day and that he was in discussions with the Navy chief, Admiral SM Nanda, in Delhi.

On December 9, the Navy announced that they had sunk the Ghazi on December 4, after the start of the war. Later, officers were decorated for their role and the offensive action of their ships in the sinking of the Ghazi.

After the war, however, teams of divers confirmed that it was an internal explosion that sank the Ghazi. The log of the Ghazi was recovered and the last entry as far as I can recall was on November 29, 1971. Sadly, that too has been destroyed.

The Navy had earlier decided to change the date of Navy Day to December 4, the day they had proclaimed that they had sunk the Ghazi.

But I had spoken to the press regarding the sinking of the Ghazi and later published my conversations with Vice Admiral Krishnan in my book 'Surrender at Dacca' in 1997. The Navy then realised that they could no longer maintain their claims to have sunk the Ghazi on December 4.

The Navy then went on to state that December 4, the new date for Navy Day, marked the start of the war. For the record, the war started on December 3 at 1800 hours, when Pakistan bombed our airfields.

As the old saying goes, truth is the first casualty in war.

General JFR Jacob played a critical role in the 1971 India Pakistan war as the Eastern Command Chief.

http://sify.com/news/the-truth-behind-the-navy-s-sinking-of-ghazi-news-columns-kfztj3bhjeh.html

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Thanks for posting this. This is good reference to use against the Indian propaganda.

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Wednesday, June 02, 2010

P3C Orion Aircraft inducted into Pakistan Navy

KARACHI: The induction ceremony of two modified P3C Orion aircraft acquired from the US was held at the Pakistan Navy Base Mehran on Tuesday.

Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Noman Bashir was the chief guest at the ceremony.

US Brig Gen Mike Nagata of the Office of Defence Representative in Pakistan, and the US Consul General in Karachi Stephens G Fakan were also present.

Speaking on the occasion, the naval chief called the ceremony a historic event on many accounts. He said with the induction of these aircraft, the capability of Pakistan Navy and its Aviation Wing would be enhanced, adding that, “We have to contribute to make the areas that surround our country on land and the sea safe and secure and that we take this as our responsibility as well as moral obligation”.

The navy chief pointed out that the aircraft would help the force in furthering this very effort. Admiral Bashir said the fully modified aircraft were capable of undertaking missions that they are designed for and with their induction, the friendship between Pakistan and the US had been cemented further. [app]

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010\06\02\story_2-6-2010_pg7_22

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According to Pakistani news report, Pakistan Navy is now operating two Agosta 70 submarines and three Agosta 90B submarines, the former will be retired and replaced by seven conventional submarines.

That sounds about right. 7 more subs in addition to Agosta's. 7 German subs will be too expensive for us, so perhaps a combo of 3 German U-214's and 4 Chinese (type ??) might be a good option. I'm not in favour of an all chinese option, since U-214's are cutting edge and hard match for IN.

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What you're saying is spot on. however, there seems to be little movement on the u214s - what more evaluation is needed? they have evaluated those to death and the only thing needed is the sign on the dotted line!

This CNS and the good president still seem to think that the Marlin is still an option!

ndad

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“Type 054A is a bigger ship than F22P, but we may not acquire 054, but we need to upgrade F22P, to become closer to 054,” Admiral Noman Bashir said.

Type 054A XuZhou is installed with 32 cells vertical launcher system. XuZhou called on Port Klang in Dec 2009.

He commented that Type 054A is a very successful ship for PLA Navy.

He said F22P can be modified to become closer to Type 054A, but not exactly like that. Pakistan Navy is discussing with Chinese counterparts about its future frigate upgrading program.

Seems like we might not be able to afford a Type 054A (thats one good ship). Will be interesting to know what features can be installed in an improved F-22P. The VLS should be a must. But adding VLS and other key elements might make it almost as expensive as Type 054A (definitely not significantly cheaper) so why not go for that? I'm a bit confused on this, Is it because of in-house production capabilities?

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Since Zaradri is the President and Bashir is the CNS, I have developed doubts about any navy deals especially if the word 'France' is written.

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Seems like we might not be able to afford a Type 054A (thats one good ship). Will be interesting to know what features can be installed in an improved F-22P. The VLS should be a must. But adding VLS and other key elements might make it almost as expensive as Type 054A (definitely not significantly cheaper) so why not go for that? I'm a bit confused on this, Is it because of in-house production capabilities?

That will make some sense as we have already paid for the transfer of technology for F-22P and it seemed illogical to do so for just one ship. we have heard about this improved F-22P before and with VLS i think it would be able to fill some gap in airdefence for PN at low cost as this would still be a non Stealth Ship. This could be due to the high cost of Type 054 and lack of funds on our side.

In long term Type 054 is very important for PN as india is already buying form Russia and Producing locally the new line of Stealth Ships armed with Barak-2 MR SAM with 70km range developed specifically to handle the antiship missiles.While considering our options PN should also keep in mind that we will be facing best of the Russian Supersonic antiship missiles like indian painted YAKHONT aka BRAHMOS, 3M54E1 KLUB and western antiship missiles like Exocet and Harpoon therefore our future ships must be capable of handling these threats in war times.

Speaking of low cost, may be PN should look for local production of few Type 022 (Houbei Class) new-generation stealth missile fast attack craft armed with eight C-803 anti-ship missiles and Russian AK-630 30mm six-barrel CIWS for short-range air defence.

I just hope that PN is looking for the new Type 039A YUAN Class Diesel Electric Submarines not the Type 039 SONG Class Submarines

i just hope that PN will go for the U-214 SSK and reject the paper Marline Submarines

After the French statements of not providing JF-17 avionics due to indian factor how could GoP look for the Marline Submarines?

Edited by jawad

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Talking about submarines, here is a piece of news that goes far beyond the news of Pakistan acquiring number of conventional submarines as was first reported in Pakdef some time back. What was not disclosed at that time was that Pakistan also intends to lease an Xia-class naval strategic nuclear submarine until a confirmation was received. Negotiations are now in advanced stage and should be ending soon per knowledgable sourses.

China, initially was reluctant, but after leasing of Russian nuclear submarines to India and US-India nuclear deal, agreed to lease the submarine. Pakistan has always been ahead of Indians but after acquisition of Scorpions and leasing of Russian nuclear submarines, Pakistan had to go this route to maintain its advantage.

Edited by pshamim

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Adter reading about Xia class submarine, I am really bewildered as to why some one will go for this submarine. I hope the news is wrong and we do not throw our money around. A bad decision unless I was given wtong information. On the other hand, it could be another class if Pakistan is going for nuclear submarine.

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Adter reading about Xia class submarine, I am really bewildered as to why some one will go for this submarine. I hope the news is wrong and we do not throw our money around. A bad decision unless I was given wtong information. On the other hand, it could be another class if Pakistan is going for nuclear submarine.

Mr PSHAMIM, There are so many questions about subs and certainly nuclear subs. After reading about Russian nuclear subs I wonder why India goes for them. There is always a certain risk but there is a big need to have second strike. The Indian Ocean is huge and India cannot control it like Pakistan soil. There is a big problem it tracking nuclear subs and even if tracked one needs a lot more to counter them. I think Pakistan is busy with some parts inhouse and probably is going to get parts they can use from China. But good post cause I did had no info about it...

Kind regards.

Edited by Munir

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Adter reading about Xia class submarine, I am really bewildered as to why some one will go for this submarine. I hope the news is wrong and we do not throw our money around. A bad decision unless I was given wtong information. On the other hand, it could be another class if Pakistan is going for nuclear submarine.

i think only logical reason could be the training ship(So is this news true?) with power projection value (not many countries in the world who can even hope to have such weapon certainly no other Muslim country can )with limited operational capability and may be due to the fact that Chinese were able to fix all the problems related to Xia class submarine and are not ready to transfer more advance version.

on the other hand Nerpa nuclear-powered attack submarine is one of the very best that Indian navy (even Chinese)can hope for. Yes Russian boats have some safety related issues but isn't it true for all the Russian hardware?having said that their weaponry in right hand can play destroy its enemies. So far we have no answer to these advance nuclear-powered attack submarine

Edited by jawad

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... having said that their weaponry in right hands can plainly destroy its enemies. So far we have no answer to these advance nuclear-powered attack submarine.

We don't!

You mean if the Indian Nuclear Submarine carries few nuclear weapons then we should simply give up and surrender since it is being operated by few 'right hands?'

We cannot strike back?

You might be quite wrong if you assume that. :D

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While having a conversation with the President of a naval institution here in the good'ol US of A, this person informed me that Pakistan Navy is planning to procure and build four French Andrasta-Class SSK plus three U-214 from Germany.

I questioned him about of Andrasta being small and without AIP he stated that DCNS has assured that Andrasta can be customized to PN specification which includes AIP. He claims that PN has studied throughly the sub operations along with Indian coastal areas from Sir Greek to Bombay and found that they need a smaller SSK rather than bigger one like Agosta-90B, Scorpene or U-214. He said at some places the depth is less than 48m or 160 feet and these bigger subs are sitting ducks because of their size. He also mentioned that Andrasta's capability to choke mouth of Persia Gulf and deny India its oil.

I guess Andrasta is called 'brown' water submarine

He said when the time comes to replace Agosta-70 PN should replace them with U-214 because nothing can beat German sub.

He said present Chinese subs are equal or even lower in capability than PN's Agosta-70 and PN should not even think of buying from China. He said that Japanese Navy's P-3 have absolutely no problem in locating the most advance subs China has.

Edited by H Khan

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While having a conversation with the President of a naval institution here in the good'ol US of A, this person informed me that Pakistan Navy is planning to procure and build four French Andrasta-Class SSK plus three U-214 from Germany.

I questioned him about of Andrasta being small and without AIP he stated that DCNS has assured that Andrasta can be customized to PN specification which includes AIP. He claims that PN has studied throughly the sub operations along with Indian coastal areas from Sir Greek to Bombay and found that they need a smaller SSK rather than bigger one like Agosta-90B, Scorpene or U-214. He said at some places the depth is less than 48m or 160 feet and these bigger subs are sitting ducks because of their size. He also mentioned that Andrasta's capability to choke mouth of Persia Gulf and deny India its oil.

I guess Andrasta is called 'brown' water submarine

He said when the time comes to replace Agosta-70 PN should replace them with U-214 because nothing can beat German sub.

He said present Chinese subs are equal or even lower in capability than PN's Agosta-70 and PN should not even think of buying from China. He said that Japanese Navy's P-3 have absolutely no problem in locating the most advance subs China has.

So its basically going to be 3 U-214 SSK and Four Andrasta class SSK Vs Type 039A YUAN Class SSK

SSK Andrasta Coastal Submarine, France

The 19-crew, 855t displacement, Andrasta submarine, announced by DCNS in September 2008, has been optimised for littoral operations in coastal waters, but remains a formidable adversary in blue (deep) water environments.

The submarine is named after Andrasta, the Celtic goddess of war whose name means victorious or invincible. The prime contractor, DCNS, considers that the Andrasta has no equivalent for littoral missions in terms of manoeuvrability and stealth.

The submarine design draws heavily on the proven configuration and systems adopted for the Scorpene family and has about 70% commonality with the Scorpene. The Andrasta surfaced displacement is 855t compared to the 1,790t to 2,010t displacement of the Scorpene. The submarine incorporates the same level of safety, stealth signatures and systems integration as the Scorpene.

"The SSK Andrasta submarine has been optimised for littoral operations in coastal waters."

The Andrasta can lurk on the seabed in coastal waters where the water depth is typically less than 100m. At a speed of 4kt the range is more than 3,000nm and more than 1,800nm at 8kt.

Andrasta is being presented to world markets at about half the cost of attack submarines such as the Scorpene. The Andrasta design can incorporate extra performance options which are not mandatory for littoral missions but which customer countries may require, without degrading the submarine’s efficiency.

For specials operations, the Andrasta has a deployment airlock for combat swimmers, electronic warfare and intelligence gathering systems.

Andrasta missions

The submarine missions cover anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare, intelligence gathering, special operations, offensive mine mooring, covert tracking of illegal activities, single ship operations and cooperative operations with other ships or maritime assets. The Andrasta is equipped to communicate easily with other assets and command centres.

Design

The double-hull structure gives good survivability and surfaced sea keeping characteristics. An X-configuration rudder has independently operated surfaces for a high level of manoeuvrability including a small turning radius.

The small hull helps contribute to the submarine's stealth characteristics. The submarine has a diving depth to 200m and a submerged endurance of five days. It also has a very low acoustic and visual signature.

Command and control

The Andrasta is equipped with the DCNS SUBTICS submarine tactical integrated combat system. SUBTICS systems are in operation aboard Scorpene submarines of the Chilean Navy and Agosta 90B submarines for the Pakistan Navy

The combat management system is integrated with the sonar and other sensors (optical, optronic, electronic support measures, radar) and carries out the location and identification of vessels, target tracking, tactical analysis, decision making, action management, exchange of tactical data via datalinks, the control of weapons systems and engagement of targets.

"Andrasta's double-hull structure gives good survivability and surfaced sea keeping characteristics."

The submarine is equipped with high-precision navigation and surveillance systems for operation in littoral waters. Surveillance missions can be successfully carried out while the submarine is at rest on the seabed.

Weapons

The Andrasta can accommodate new-generation heavyweight torpedoes such as the Black Shark, anti-ship missiles such as the Exocet SM-39 and a mine-laying system. The torpedoes and missiles are stored and carried in the six forward torpedo tubes. The small hull size of the submarine does not accommodate torpedoes and missiles for reload.

Special forces

The Andrasta submarines, which can carry two passengers plus a team of six divers, can be deployed for special forces missions which gives the Andrasta an enhanced attack capability comparable to larger submarines. The submarine is fitted with a lock-out / lock-in chamber for combat swimmers.

Key Data:

Complement19 crew, plus 2 passengers and 6 divers

Dimensions:

Overall Length48.8m

Surfaced Displacement855t

Performance:

Diving DepthOver 200m

Maximum Submerged SpeedOver 15kt

High-Speed Autonomy3 hours

Submerged EnduranceUp to 5 days

Transit RangeOver 3,000nm

Typical Mission Duration15 days

He said when the time comes to replace Agosta-70 PN should replace them with U-214 because nothing can beat German sub.

He said present Chinese subs are equal or even lower in capability than PN's Agosta-70 and PN should not even think of buying from China. He said that Japanese Navy's P-3 have absolutely no problem in locating the most advance subs China has.

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced

By MATTHEW HICKLEY

Last updated at 00:13 10 November 2007

When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed.

At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world's only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.

That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory.

Uninvited guest: A Chinese Song Class submarine

American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.

The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.

One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.

The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.And the rest of the costly defensive screen, which usually includes at least two U.S. submarines, was also apparently unable to detect it.

According to the Nato source, the encounter has forced a serious re-think of American and Nato naval strategy as commanders reconsider the level of threat from potentially hostile Chinese submarines.It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was "shadowing" the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence.Analysts believe Beijing was sending a message to America and the West demonstrating its rapidly-growing military capability to threaten foreign powers which try to interfere in its "backyard".

The People's Liberation Army Navy's submarine fleet includes at least two nuclear-missile launching vessels.Its 13 Song Class submarines are extremely quiet and difficult to detect when running on electric motors.Commodore Stephen Saunders, editor of Jane's Fighting Ships, and a former Royal Navy anti-submarine specialist, said the U.S. had paid relatively little attention to this form of warfare since the end of the Cold War.

He said: "It was certainly a wake-up call for the Americans."It would tie in with what we see the Chinese trying to do, which appears to be to deter the Americans from interfering or operating in their backyard, particularly in relation to Taiwan."In January China carried a successful missile test, shooting down a satellite in orbit for the first time.

This was the Song Class submarines and newer Type 039A YUAN Class design(also rumored to be fitted with Chinese air-independent propulsion (AIP) system) is are combination of the Song and Kilo class SSK (which itself is considered to be to be one of the quietest SSK )

Edited by jawad

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While having a conversation with the President of a naval institution here in the good'ol US of A, this person informed me that Pakistan Navy is planning to procure and build four French Andrasta-Class SSK plus three U-214 from Germany.

I questioned him about of Andrasta being small and without AIP he stated that DCNS has assured that Andrasta can be customized to PN specification which includes AIP. He claims that PN has studied throughly the sub operations along with Indian coastal areas from Sir Greek to Bombay and found that they need a smaller SSK rather than bigger one like Agosta-90B, Scorpene or U-214. He said at some places the depth is less than 48m or 160 feet and these bigger subs are sitting ducks because of their size. He also mentioned that Andrasta's capability to choke mouth of Persia Gulf and deny India its oil.

I guess Andrasta is called 'brown' water submarine

He said when the time comes to replace Agosta-70 PN should replace them with U-214 because nothing can beat German sub.

He said present Chinese subs are equal or even lower in capability than PN's Agosta-70 and PN should not even think of buying from China. He said that Japanese Navy's P-3 have absolutely no problem in locating the most advance subs China has.

Thanks for the update Sir, it means PN has started to think from its head or may be have started to use their brains more. As this is a very good strategy, small subs working in tandem with big ones. This way, we can have more subs, procuring costs would be low and in the price of one big sub, we can have nearly 2 small ones, operational costs would be low, more hunters would in the sea, covering more area and harassing the enemy more and would be hard to detect due to their small size. 6-10 of such sized ships and 4+ big ones will be a very comprehensive sub force, if achieved by the end of the decade and will make sure Indians don't have a free hand in the Indian ocean.

As for Chinese subs, Sir, do remember, most of their sub fleet fleet is old, the ones which are noisy, thus they can be easily detected also.

PN should atleast check out the Chinese subs, who know we may be in for a surprise, plus we can start with them in joint collaboration as if not now, in future their subs would become good ones and worthy of having one. So from now we should get together with them and share our experience and get their experience also.

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