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Pak Navy related discussion: May - August 2010

143 posts in this topic

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Is there a possibility that Pakistan may base cruise missiles on its new frigates.

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Posted · Report post

The PN would want to do it but the U.S allowing that is different story.I think PN might be looking to put them on F-24 from china.

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Is there a possibility that Pakistan may base cruise missiles on its new frigates.

you would need a much larger ship, probably the size of a large destroyer or cruiser. if I'm not mistaken, USN fires its tomahawks mainly from the Ticonderoga class cruiser since it is enormous and packs massive firepower with 122 VLS cells. Arleigh Burke class destroyers are capable of doing so as well, but are mainly used for the Aegis BMD (ballistic missile defense) system and AAW (anti-aircraft warfare) as well as other multipurpose uses such as ASW. basically the Arleigh Burke class destroyers are for missile defense and the even larger Ticonderoga class cruisers are for "bluewater" land-attack capability suited for the role of firing long-ranged cruise missiles. unfortunately for PN, they don't have any ship large enough to pack the Babur cruise missile and the OHP class frigates, despite being larger, still are not big enough. it might be possible for engineers to fit a few launchers that will akwardly stick out of the frame, but that would still be limited to only a few missiles. even if PN were to go for the Chinese Type 54A, it would still not be large enough and its VLS cells will not fit any missile of that size.

the only solution is to design and construct a destroyer-size ship to house your weapons systems. if Pakistan cannot do that right now, then now would be the best time to invest in education to produce the kind of engineers to take the country to whole new level, there is no substitute for this. there was one quick-fix solution that was offered by the US a while ago. the Spruance class destroyers would have been large enough to house the cruise missiles and it would only be a matter of simply rewiring and reprogramming the fire control systems. however, that option is no longer available the ship is now gone. PN can certainly try to make modifications to the OHP class frigates to house its own weapons, but I don't know if you would want to do that especially since the Americans will be pretty upset and PN still needs a few more of these ships. the last thing the military needs right now is the US halting the supply of weapons, as they already don't trust Pakistan due to its sharing of technology with China.

Edited by Sassad

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Posted (edited) · Report post

We would be lucky if the PN's OHPs are upgraded to a level similar to Turkey's G-Class program: GENESIS, Mk.41 VLS with ESSM, and perhaps two 4-cell launchers for Harpoon Block-II. If such an upgrade is actually applied on even 6 of the 8 OHPs, I think this would give the PN a fairly capable fleet, and it may be able to save if U.S. helps out with assisting with finances through military aid, or at least ensuring that Pakistan receives favourable payment terms. Beyond this, Pakistan should invest heavily (or as much as possible) into next-generation projects such as TF-2000/TF-100, indigenous industrial and R&D capacities, etc, to ensure it can funnel through a capable homebuilt system when the OHPs need to be replaced.

Engaging in Turkey's long series of high profile projects, such as the Atmaca AShM, Akya ASW torpedo, GENESIS, TF-2000 AAW FFG, TF-100 general purpose FFG, etc, could be a good idea perhaps.

Edited by FaisalK

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Posted · Report post

We would be lucky if the PN's OHPs are upgraded to a level similar to Turkey's G-Class program: GENESIS, Mk.41 VLS with ESSM, and perhaps two 4-cell launchers for Harpoon Block-II. If such an upgrade is actually applied on even 6 of the 8 OHPs, I think this would give the PN a fairly capable fleet, and it may be able to save if U.S. helps out with assisting with finances through military aid, or at least ensuring that Pakistan receives favourable payment terms.

yes, that would be incredible, each ship would pack more firepower than any IN destroyer or any other naval ship in the indian ocean for that matter. judging by the flow of deliveries, it shouldn't be too difficult for PN to get its hands on the Mk. 41 VLS and ESSM since PAF is getting new F-16's. GENESIS depends on the whim of the turks, I'm not sure that they would be willing to share a netcentric command system with PN due to sheer importance of the systems involved. they can't risk compromising the netcentric technology that connects their entire fleet due to leaks in the subcontinent. however, Pakistan has cooperated in many different areas with the turks, technically they must share something with Pakistan. although I'm hoping, praying, that the higher-ups weren't colossally stupid enough to share cruise missile technology with the turks. it is best if Pakistani engineers develop a netcentric command system, for their own good. if Pakistan is to develop more "indigenous" weapons, it needs to be able to integrate them within its own systems whenever it wishes. the only way to do that is create its systems by itself. Pakistan has plenty of software engineers, networking specialists, how about putting them to use? anyways, I'm hoping the PN has already made a deal with the US on Mk. 41 VLS and ESSM. it doesn't make any sense to not go for this option when it is available, the only problem is getting past the indian lobby.

Beyond this, Pakistan should invest heavily (or as much as possible) into next-generation projects such as TF-2000/TF-100, indigenous industrial and R&D capacities, etc, to ensure it can funnel through a capable homebuilt system when the OHPs need to be replaced. Engaging in Turkey's long series of high profile projects, such as the Atmaca AShM, Akya ASW torpedo, GENESIS, TF-2000 AAW FFG, TF-100 general purpose FFG, etc, could be a good idea perhaps.

this sounds great, but it can only be realized if Pakistan has the industrial base and a steady supply of engineers! :) otherwise cooperating in joint projects would only benefit the turks and Pakistan would only get the short end of the stick. above all, it needs massive funding and all of these things appear to be very, very far away with this current democratic setup. take a look at Turkey, despite it having an educated society, it still lacks the steady supply of engineers for its fledgling defense industry. they have no choice but to cooperate with other countries for technology, but even then the growth rate is very slow. on the other hand, the defense industry is largely a private one with large corporations driving the growth and development compared to Pakistan's stagnant (and somewhat pathetic) government-run programs.

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Posted · Report post

I think the PN must have some upgrade plan for all 8 OHPs. Manning an dpaying the costs to run all 8 sinply to act as Anti-Sub platforms would be insane and am sure PN wontbeinterestedin doing that or for them to act as just large, glorified patrol boats. We have purchased a large number of air and sea launched Harpoon Block IIs, I expect these would be integrated.

Although not in the class of Babur, they do have costal land attack capability.

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Posted · Report post

Is there a possibility that Pakistan may base cruise missiles on its new frigates.

Its possible, but depends if PN is willing to let go of Hanger space. 4+ could be housed in Helo hanger facility, question is will PN want to do that.

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Posted · Report post

Asalamo-a-laikum.

If the Mk-13 is not reinstalled, and the magazine stripped out, a Mk-41 VLS for ESSM SAMs could be fitted, and behind that a box launcher for Babur, and behind that two quad launchers for Harpon. Theretically therefore anything is possible.

Realistically, is the US going hand over ships that Pakistan would arm with LACMs?

Who will pay for what is likely to be an upgrade that will cost more than the ship?

Do we need such a capability on a surface ship which can easily be swamped by anti-ship missile armed Su-30MKIs, MiG-29Ks, and Jaguars?

I think Babur on any OHP is not going to happen. We should push for a working Mk-13 to be able to fire SM-2 and Harpoon missiles. A Mk-41 with ESSM SAMs would be a bonus, but I don't think the amount of money announced covers that.

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AOA,

Guys don't expect to much. I like your enthusiasm.

Here are some straight facts:

1. The OHP's are very old ships. (30+ years) (The effective life of a ship is considered to be 25-30 years)

2. These ships are NOT going to get a mid-life upgrade.(which can enhance its life another 5-10 years).

3. The Mk-13 will not be re-installed.

4. NO other upgrade is in the plans. (because the US has not allowed any upgrade to be done by Pakistan)

5. PN has to run these ships on spares which will be provided by the US (so they can control how and where we use these ships)

Concl: These ships are being forced onto Pakistan, inorder to ensure that our government does not go for more ships from China.

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Posted · Report post

AOA,

Guys don't expect to much. I like your enthusiasm.

Here are some straight facts:

1. The OHP's are very old ships. (30+ years) (The effective life of a ship is considered to be 25-30 years)

2. These ships are NOT going to get a mid-life upgrade.(which can enhance its life another 5-10 years).

3. The Mk-13 will not be re-installed.

4. NO other upgrade is in the plans. (because the US has not allowed any upgrade to be done by Pakistan)

5. PN has to run these ships on spares which will be provided by the US (so they can control how and where we use these ships)

Concl: These ships are being forced onto Pakistan, inorder to ensure that our government does not go for more ships from China.

Any source for this or is it just "your opinion"!?

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Posted · Report post

AOA,

Guys don't expect to much. I like your enthusiasm.

Here are some straight facts:

1. The OHP's are very old ships. (30+ years) (The effective life of a ship is considered to be 25-30 years)

2. These ships are NOT going to get a mid-life upgrade.(which can enhance its life another 5-10 years).

3. The Mk-13 will not be re-installed.

4. NO other upgrade is in the plans. (because the US has not allowed any upgrade to be done by Pakistan)

5. PN has to run these ships on spares which will be provided by the US (so they can control how and where we use these ships)

Concl: These ships are being forced onto Pakistan, inorder to ensure that our government does not go for more ships from China.

Leo!

Any idea where the millions will be spent to upgrade? I am sure money is not being spent on new toilet additions?

Curious!

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Posted (edited) · Report post

"These ships are being forced onto Pakistan, inorder to ensure that our government does not go for more ships from China."

I think people should realize that the US does not get any benefit from stopping Pakistan from acquiring Chinese hardware. This talk of US trying to hold us back from Chinese hardware is a Pakistani thinking. The US side has NEVER stopped Pakistan from purchasing from China. The US did not offer F-16s to Pakistan to stop the JF-17 program and there is nothing factual or evidential to prove this otherwise.

Pakistan has asked for the ships and others from the EDA pool. If we do not want it, the Americans would junk them. The only issue on hand is that we requested and they came back saying OHPs are being retired and if you want them, then take them.

Nobody is forcing Pakistan to take stuff. In the past, we have said no to many other things, I am not sure why we would not do the same now?

So please do understand that contrary to public perception in Pakistan, the US gains nothing by forcing us to take their old hardware. Like Turkey and Greece in the past, Pakistan has an inexhaustible requirement to absorb US EDAs. It is deemed cheaper and more feasible for us to get a free ship, get whatever type of upgrades are on offer using the military assistance money and not having to pay a penny for it.

If we do not require it, we should just say no. However the truth is, as much as it hurts me to write this, we complain about the old hardware etc., but then do not have the funds to acquire what we want in the condition of our liking either. The US will give us what they themselves do not need and only if we ask. Contrary to perception, a US MAP team is in Pakistan. They have regular meetings at Joint Chiefs and at services headquarters with the concerned procurement and planning teams of the Army, Navy and PAF. If these teams say no, nothing can be shoved down our throat. Its as simple as that.

Edited by SSAAD

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Posted · Report post

If I am not mistaken, Leo sahib belongs some way or the other to PN. I would consider his comments more authentic than what we arm-chair "planners" are saying. If (as Leo sahib puts up) these ships are not going to get any considerable upgrade, than whats the point in getting 6-8 gun boats! If we were getting a single frigate for being more effective part of International maritime patrol, than it was understandable, but to get a full fleet of these ships (without any considerable upgrade) is senseless!

SSAAD sahib, I agree with you that these ships are not being forced on us by US, rather our own choice. But one thing which is bothering me is, does induction of these ships shelf PN plans to get new frigates from China (and other countries)? Or these ships are seen as a "BONUS" and PN still procures new frigates?

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Posted · Report post

Amazing

PAF gets surplus F-16s we upgrade (free of cost) to MLU standard

Army gets M109s it upgrades (free of cost) to A5 standard

Navy gets OHP frigate and $70 millionin FMF for no feasible upgrade?

Can you see why we are confused?#

Where the above aqquisitions "forced" on Pakistan?

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Posted (edited) · Report post

SSAAD sahib, I agree with you that these ships are not being forced on us by US, rather our own choice. But one thing which is bothering me is, does induction of these ships shelf PN plans to get new frigates from China (and other countries)? Or these ships are seen as a "BONUS" and PN still procures new frigates?

I will agree with Ssaad Saheb. He makes a lot of sense. Yes there are speculations which I feel have no merit. Do you really believe that induction of glorified boats as some call them will stop Pakistan from going for new well armed frigates from China or elsewhere. For your information, there are other speculation flying as well. Indians think otherwise and have a totally different take than what has been stated by some in this thread . See the excerpt from a article in Wall Street Journal today written by an Indian.

Special Representative Richard Holbrooke thereafter reportedly advised the Chinese to play a more proactive role in expanding their arms transfers to Pakistan. The Obama administration's interest in "reconciliation" with the Taliban and possibilities of a precipitate U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan leading to a return to Taliban control, raised concerns in India about the possibility of a U.S.-China-Pakistan nexus emerging in India's neighborhood
.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704608104575221303790430846.html?mod=WSJINDIA_hps_MIDDLEFourthNews

Edited by pshamim

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Posted · Report post

Yes there are speculations l;ike that. But induction of glorified boats will not stop Pakistan from going for new frigates whether they are from China or elsewhere.

PShamim sahib, I hope what you are saying is true. I hope PN goes for more advance frigates from wherever optimally possible.

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Posted · Report post

Lets us not be impatient. We will surely know in few months when Ship goes for retrofit/upgrafe or just for a new paint. We will then learn if PN should had rejected them or not.

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Posted (edited) · Report post

If I am not mistaken, Leo sahib belongs some way or the other to PN. I would consider his comments more authentic than what we arm-chair "planners" are saying. If (as Leo sahib puts up) these ships are not going to get any considerable upgrade, than whats the point in getting 6-8 gun boats! If we were getting a single frigate for being more effective part of International maritime patrol, than it was understandable, but to get a full fleet of these ships (without any considerable upgrade) is senseless!

SSAAD sahib, I agree with you that these ships are not being forced on us by US, rather our own choice. But one thing which is bothering me is, does induction of these ships shelf PN plans to get new frigates from China (and other countries)? Or these ships are seen as a "BONUS" and PN still procures new frigates?

I respect Leo sahib and his opinion greatly. However it should be duly noted that we have a precedence for saying no to things that we do not like. An example of this is when in the times of Gen Ayub Khan, the US assistance group had a meeting with PA for induction of infantry weapons in the Pakistan Army. The US side wanted Pakistan to take .50 browning MGs. So one of the officers (Lt Col Mitha) said that we should get a few MGs so we can evaluate them with our troops and then make a call. To this the American officer told Mitha "Beggars can't be choosers". Upon hearing this, Lt Col Mitha simply got up and left the room to make a point that we are not there to take up anything or everything shoved down our throats and that too in such a derogatory manner. I think if we feel that these boats are such a waste, we are likely to have certain classifications within the PN which would classify them as obsolete and not worthy of commissioning into service. What I have heard or seen is that American gear that comes into our possession is usually always worth it in terms of quality etc. ( I say this with politics aside as the political strings are a whole another matter). There are other examples of PN not diving headlong on the P-3 AEW purchase, or PAF not going for F-20 and Army not going for Abrams (even though the Americans were pushing hard on both of the latter cases).

Edited by SSAAD

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I respect Leo sahib and his opinion greatly. However it should be duly noted that we have a precedence for saying no to things that we do not like. An example of this is when in the times of Gen Ayub Khan, the US assistance group had a meeting with PA for induction of infantry weapons in the Pakistan Army. The US side wanted Pakistan to take .50 browning MGs. So one of the officers (Lt Col Mitha) said that we should get a few MGs so we can evaluate them with our troops and then make a call. To this the American officer told Mitha "Beggars can't be choosers". Upon hearing this, Lt Col Mitha simply got up and left the room to make a point that we are not there to take up anything or everything shoved down our throats and that too in such a derogatory manner. I think if we feel that these boats are such a waste, we are likely to have certain classifications within the PN which would classify them as obsolete and not worthy of commissioning into service. What I have heard or seen is that American gear that comes into our possession is usually always worth it in terms of quality etc. ( I say this with politics aside as the political strings are a whole another matter). There are other examples of PN not diving headlong on the P-3 AEW purchase, or PAF not going for F-20 and Army not going for Abrams (even though the Americans were pushing hard on both of the latter cases).

+1, and don't forget the Fletcher class in not too distant past.

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AOA

As Muhammad Hassan said, I am related to the PN. Some of the members know my background very well.

That is the most I could say about the OHP'S. I cannot add anything more until things come out in the open.

The points I wrote are as per the initial contract status.

PN had plans for some upgrades, but still not accepted by the US. Maybe after shift in our or US policy, this changes and we do get an upgrade.

I also concur with pshamim sahib, that we should wait and see.

Thanks all for understanding.

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Posted (edited) · Report post

I think people should realize that the US does not get any benefit from stopping Pakistan from acquiring Chinese hardware. This talk of US trying to hold us back from Chinese hardware is a Pakistani thinking. The US side has NEVER stopped Pakistan from purchasing from China. The US did not offer F-16s to Pakistan to stop the JF-17 program and there is nothing factual or evidential to prove this otherwise.

Pakistan has asked for the ships and others from the EDA pool. If we do not want it, the Americans would junk them. The only issue on hand is that we requested and they came back saying OHPs are being retired and if you want them, then take them.

Nobody is forcing Pakistan to take stuff. In the past, we have said no to many other things, I am not sure why we would not do the same now?

So please do understand that contrary to public perception in Pakistan, the US gains nothing by forcing us to take their old hardware. Like Turkey and Greece in the past, Pakistan has an inexhaustible requirement to absorb US EDAs. It is deemed cheaper and more feasible for us to get a free ship, get whatever type of upgrades are on offer using the military assistance money and not having to pay a penny for it.

If we do not require it, we should just say no. However the truth is, as much as it hurts me to write this, we complain about the old hardware etc., but then do not have the funds to acquire what we want in the condition of our liking either. The US will give us what they themselves do not need and only if we ask. Contrary to perception, a US MAP team is in Pakistan. They have regular meetings at Joint Chiefs and at services headquarters with the concerned procurement and planning teams of the Army, Navy and PAF. If these teams say no, nothing can be shoved down our throat. Its as simple as that.

As to this point, all of you must be aware of the Brooke & Garcia Class FFGs dilemma, which was the induction of these 8 ships in the PN and then retrievel by the US after 6 years, which left the PN without any ships. That was the time when we desparatly went for the Type-21 FFs, which were the only available option.

So we can assume whatever we like but the reality is that the US cannot allow the PN to be self reliant.

Edited by Leo

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Posted · Report post

AOA

As Muhammad Hassan said, I am related to the PN. Some of the members know my background very well.

That is the most I could say about the OHP'S. I cannot add anything more until things come out in the open.

The points I wrote are as per the initial contract status.

PN had plans for some upgrades, but still not accepted by the US. Maybe after shift in our or US policy, this changes and we do get an upgrade.

I also concur with pshamim sahib, that we should wait and see.

Thanks all for understanding.

Quite different statement from your first post on teh matter

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Posted · Report post

Latest news and seems to contridict Leos point about short service life.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/united-states-navy-and-pakistan-navy-agree-to-ship-transfer-2010-05-05?reflink=MW_news_stmp

United States Navy and Pakistan Navy Agree to Ship Transfer

Pakistan Committing to Fund Transfer for USS McInerney (FFG-8)

ALEXANDRIA, Va., May 05, 2010 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- VSE Corporation /quotes/comstock/15*!vsec/quotes/nls/vsec (VSEC 39.33, -0.61, -1.52%) recently hosted a meeting between the United States and Pakistan Navies to solidify an agreement for the transfer of the USS McInerney, which is scheduled to be decommissioned this summer.

Pakistan Navy Captain Abdul Rehman signed a Letter of Offer and Acceptance to initiate the ship transfer. Captain Rehman is assigned to the Embassy of Pakistan as Attache for Defense Procurement (Air Force/Navy). U.S. Navy Captain Chris Pietras represented the Naval Sea Systems Command in accepting the offer.

For VSE's Naval Ship Transfer and Repair Team, the agreement translates into a contract covering training responsibilities. VSE will support U.S. Navy training of the 248 Pakistani crew members, beginning this month, until the ship is officially transferred around the end of August. In the near future, VSE will develop a work package for approval by the Pakistan Navy. After the transfer, VSE will manage a shipyard industrial availability contract to make ship repairs that will extend its life. During the availability the VSE's Ship Training and Assistance Team (STAT) will provide hands on maintenance and operational training for the Pakistan crew.

In January 2011, the VSE STAT is scheduled to conduct underway training for the crew, with a final evaluation by the U.S. Navy Afloat Training Group on the ability of the Pakistan crew to operate the ship and equipment in a safe-to-sail manner. Afterwards, the crew will sail the ship home to Karachi, Pakistan. A small contingent of the VSE Transfer Assistance Team personnel will accompany the ship and provide additional underway training.

VSE CEO Maurice "Mo" Gauthier said, "Together, with our customers and the highly experienced and competent team we have assembled, we are confident that we will meet and exceed the requirements of this allied mission. We look forward to the challenge."

"Our expertise with training, equipment repair, and working in tandem with both the U.S. and Pakistan Navies will be a rewarding experience and great collaborative opportunity," added Mike Hamerly, President of International Group.

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Posted · Report post

Problem with Brook and Garcia class was that Pak wanted to lease then buy, so contract was written as such and at the end of 5 years either party could cancel the contract. Why did Pak / PN decided to go 5 year lease instead of buying the ships out right ? With Pressler amendment meant US couldn't continue with lease to sell, thus ships had to be returned, if PN had purchased then story would have been different. OHPs are being given to PN, PN was able to operate Gearings long after all other countries had retired scraped etc them, so odds are PN be able to do similar with FFG-7s.

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