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Indian Military Watch Thread!


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#1
Aslam_C

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Hello fellows!

I want to share a few details about growing military might of India. Apart from what is said on paper, these demonstrations show a better view!

Some PICS from latest Indian Republic Day!

- Agni II

Link: http://img135.images...8/agniii5lm.jpg

- Brahmos Launch System (Army Variant) :eek:

Link: http://img286.images.../brahmos2oo.jpg

- Arjun MBT

Link: http://img149.images.../551/mbt1co.jpg

- Prithvi Ballistic Missile

Link: http://img149.images.../missile7nb.jpg

- MV

Link: http://img257.images.../7405/mv0dw.jpg

- Pinaka Rocket System

Link: http://img257.images...2/pinaka9ek.jpg

- Jet Refueling Capability (in Mid-Air)

Link: http://img257.images...7928/ref5oh.jpg

- Sukhoi Jets in Action

Link: http://img149.images...inaction4sj.jpg

- New Engineering Vehicle

Link: http://img139.images...6069/mv15so.jpg

- Brahmos Missile Launcher (Second Variant)

Link: http://img139.images...brahmos26vn.jpg

- More New Engineering Vehicles including Amphibious Bridge

Link: http://img139.images.../2041/ev1bj.jpg

#2
Boota

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I am not impressed - All armies look good on the parade ground.
  • mikequinn likes this

#3
SSAAD

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Why do you say that boota? There stuff looks a lot like what we have on our end. If it were some country other than India, it would look quite alright. I suspect your bias is getting in the way of eval. the parade on its merit. :D

#4
Boota

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Why do you say that boota? There stuff looks a lot like what we have on our end. If it were some country other than India, it would look quite alright. I suspect your bias is getting in the way of eval. the parade on its merit. :D


No doubt that I am biased. However, the point I was trying to make here and its the same for Pakistan or any other country is that parades are not a good indicator of a country's military potential. Look at countries with succesful militaries. When was the last time we saw Israel military on parade. US also is not big on parades. On the other hand Saddam and Gaddafi were great at puting up big parades. Iran does the same (and thats one of the reasons I worry about them) .

#5
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No doubt that I am biased. However, the point I was trying to make here and its the same for Pakistan or any other country is that parades are not a good indicator of a country's military potential. Look at countries with succesful militaries. When was the last time we saw Israel military on parade. US also is not big on parades. On the other hand Saddam and Gaddafi were great at puting up big parades. Iran does the same (and thats one of the reasons I worry about them) .


Yup you hit the nail on the head. I don't care what the dhotees do but Pakistan should really do away with parades etc. Its just unnecessary and an utter waste of time to get a feel-good thing going. Lets not forget the wear and tear on hardware and units without which we could do well. The time we spend prepping for these dog and pony shows could be well spent with units training out in the field (which is what most western militaries do).

Now I know ppl will come back with...nai ji, yeh toh zaroori hai etc. etc. even though we know that is not correct.

#6
H Khan

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I have said many a times in the past that all three braches of Pak armed forcs should have open days at their Cant, naval bases, and air bases. Let people see things from up close and talk to service people buy and sell at stalls...yada yada yada...all for a good PR

H Khan

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#7
Munir

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US N-deal could compromise India’s interests: top scientist

NEW DELHI: India’s concessions to the United States under a landmark nuclear agreement between the two countries could compromise New Delhi’s strategic interests, the country’s Atomic Energy Commission chief was quoted as saying on Wednesday.

Anil Kakodkar, revealed just weeks before a scheduled visit to India by US President George W Bush, could further sharpen an already divisive national debate on whether India should go ahead with the agreement.

"We cannot allow India’s strategic interest to be determined by others," Kakodkar was quoted as saying in the Indian Express.

The deal, which still must be approved by the US Congress, requires India to separate its nuclear programme into civilian and military facilities — with civilian facilities open to international inspections and not allowed to be used for military purposes.

But India’s atomic energy scientists are opposing moves, reportedly proposed by US officials, to list the country’s fast-breeder reactor programme under the civilian nuclear umbrella, saying this would prevent them from pursuing military uses of nuclear energy and jeopardise the country’s security.

"Both from the point of view of maintaining long-term energy security and for maintaining a credible deterrent, the fast-breeder programme just cannot be put on the civilian list. This would amount to getting shackled and India certainly cannot compromise," said Kakodkar, who could not be reached for comment on the report.

A fast-breeder reactor produces plutonium which can be used for producing energy or nuclear weapons. India has 15 operational nuclear reactors, of which four are already under international safeguards.

It was not immediately known how many more reactors India has offered to place under safeguards governed by the Vienna-based International Atomic Energy Agency.

A former Indian prime minister, VP Singh, also supported Kakodkar’s view that putting the fast-breeder reactor (FBR) programme on the civilian list would affect both long-term energy security and the country’s ability to maintain the minimum credible deterrence.

Singh called for a review of the agreement with the US, saying that Washington was trying to pressurise New Delhi into toeing its line on Iran and "extract" other facilities. "We must review the entire agreement ... when we see that they are using it to extract facilities from us," Singh told newsmen here. "How much we have to pay for a future US promise of giving us some material or consider us a nuclear state," he asked.

The deal was signed in July when Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh visited Washington.

Under the July 18 agreement, the US agreed to share civilian nuclear technology and supply nuclear fuel to New Delhi in return for India’s strengthening of nuclear safeguards, allowing international inspections and separating its civilian and nuclear military programmes.

#8
Gul Khan

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Only matter of time before Indoos surrender their Russkie/Western nukes to uncle Sam.


India-US nuclear deal runs into troubled waters By Simon Denyer
Wed Feb 8,



NEW DELHI (Reuters) - A landmark nuclear cooperation deal between India and the United States has run into serious trouble, with Washington playing hard ball and India's atomic energy establishment raising objections to the terms of the deal.

TURF BATTLE
"There is a very strong turf battle going on," said Dr Harsh V. Pant, a lecturer in defense studies at King's College, London. "The scientific establishment wants to defend its turf."

Singh, already under fire from his Communist allies over the deal, has promised to address parliament later this month about the deal. Promising to defend India's national interest, he vowed there was "no question of bending" to American demands.

U.S. officials are hoping to reach a deal before Bush's visit. But in a January 26 interview with Reuters, Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice said India had to make some "difficult choices."

In New Delhi, the foreign ministry is keen to push the deal through, but says Washington is a playing tough. "It's coming down to hard-nosed political bargaining," said one official.

India's civilian and military nuclear programs are completely entwined. New Delhi had proposed a phased separation, Washington wants it done in one go, he said.

"That is, of course, not impossible but it will take us time and preparation if we agree to do it. And we only have three weeks before the Bush visit -- that may not be sufficient." (Additional reporting by Y.P. Rajesh)

#9
Sachin

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Aslam_C you have posted good posts. there are some corrections which i would like to make:

the "An MBT" is the Arjun MBT actually

the "another ballistic missile" is actually the Prithvi missile

the last photos are the amphibious bridge (the large black ballon size objects).

now regarding the india-us nuclear deal, i have said earlier that the biggest hurdle is the placement of india's fast-breedor reactors in safeguards. that is what Dr. Anil Kakodkar has said in mnier's news report.

there were news reports yesterday, that india and us were close to signing the nuclear deal.

India's atomic establishment a hurdle to N-deal: US expert

Manish Chand (IANS)

New Delhi, February 10, 2006

A top US expert has termed the Indian nuclear establishment's "set way of doing things" as a "major obstacle" to reaching a civil nuclear energy agreement between the two countries before US President George W Bush's visit here in early March.

"The Indian nuclear establishment is not comfortable with the civil nuclear energy deal because it changes things for them," said Dennis Kux, a former US diplomat and an expert on India-US relations.

"The separation of civilian and military nuclear facilities poses a big problem for them. They are worried and nervous because it asks them to change their set pattern of working, which they have been used to for the last three decades," Kux said in an interview.

He also sought to allay anxieties about the impact the deal will have on India's strategic programme. "The US is not trying to cap India's strategic programme or affect its minimum credible deterrence. Let's be clear about that."

Kux was reacting to Atomic Energy Commission chairman Anil Kakodkar's contention that New Delhi was not ready to place its fast breeder reactor programme in the civilian list as it would impinge on its strategic programme.

Kux, a senior policy scholar at the Woodrow Wilson International Centre for Scholars, worked as South Asia specialist with the State Department for over three decades and his views are considered influential in formulating the US policy towards the region.

His acclaimed India and the US, 1941-91: Estranged Democracies chronicles the nature of relations between the world's largest democracy and the most powerful during the Cold War period.

Alluding to difficult negotiations between the two sides on New Delhi's separation of civilian and military nuclear facilities, Kux stressed on the "seriousness" of the Bush administration in pushing the deal through Congress and the "extra political capital" it was willing to invest to make the deal real.

"The administration will push very hard to get the deal through the US Congress. This is the last psychological barrier that is waiting to be dismantled," Kux said.

He also took potshots at the Left's criticism of nuclear deal agreed to in principle in July 2005 but still to be negotiated in detail, saying their reservations stem more from their dislike of the US than objective facts.

Kux struck an optimistic note on Bush's India visit, which, he said, will give a big push to the transformation of relations between the hitherto estranged democracies.

"Even if the nuclear agreement doesn't work out by that time, the very fact of Bush coming here despite all the other big issues on his agenda like Iraq will make a big difference to India-US relations.

"The US is trying to help India, and in the big picture this does help India. The US is trying to reach a reasonable agreement. It's trying to accommodate India's civil nuclear energy aspirations," he said while underlining the point that there was broad bipartisan support for the nuclear deal.

"The deal, above all, gives India nuclear power status by finding a way to bring India into the international nuclear system," said the veteran South Asia specialist.

"Economic reforms brought India firmly into the international economic system. The nuclear deal will bring India into the global civil nuclear energy market," he said.

News report here--http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1621915,001301790001.htm

#10
H Khan

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How the hell do you get "status" when the USA is providing you everything?

H Khan

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#11
Aslam_C

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Aslam_C you have posted good posts. there are some corrections which i would like to make:

the "An MBT" is the Arjun MBT actually

the "another ballistic missile" is actually the Prithvi missile

the last photos are the amphibious bridge (the large black ballon size objects).

Thanks for appreciating my work! :)

I have corrected those few names!

No doubt that I am biased. However, the point I was trying to make here and its the same for Pakistan or any other country is that parades are not a good indicator of a country's military potential. Look at countries with succesful militaries. When was the last time we saw Israel military on parade. US also is not big on parades. On the other hand Saddam and Gaddafi were great at puting up big parades. Iran does the same (and thats one of the reasons I worry about them) .

You have a point mate! ;)

Although the new tools in the PIC's are not battle-tested but they are a matter of concern for us!

#12
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Barak deal will strengthen Navy's defence shield: Arun Prakash
Visakhapatnam | February 11, 2006 7:31:43 PM IST


Chief of Staff of the Indian Navy Admiral Arun Prakash has said the long-range Barak missile deal between India and Israel would be signed soon.
The DRDO scientists are in consultation with their counterparts in that country, he told mediapersons here yesterday.

He said if the deal materalised, it would benefit both the countries. ''It is a technical collaboration between the two nations. The missiles to be produced in both the countries would be sold to friendly countries,'' he added.

Asked what steps were being taken by the Navy to avoid transport of weaponry by terrorists through sea route, he said the vast sea coast of the country was 7500 km long and the Coast Guard personnel were doing their job quite efficiently.

The Navy was also giving a helping hand to it in this regard, he added. Though it was difficult to check every boat that passes through the east coast, the Navy was doing its best to keep the Indian waters free of terrorism activities, Admiral Prakash said.

Replying to a question whether outlay for the Indian Navy in the defence budget was insufficient, he said the Union Government hikes the defence budget by 10 per cent every year. ''Last year it was Rs 83,000 crore. We keep submitting our proposals to the government and it would finally take a suitable decision,'' he added.

He said defence cooperation between India and the United States was ''warming up rapidly''. The two countries have already signed some agreements in this sector and the US President George W Bush's visit to the country would give it a further fillip.


News report here---http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=5441

#13
Munir

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Warming up relationship between US and India is not materialized yet. Nuclear deal is not that super anymore. Read Indian newspapers on that. India did not accept P3c. It is not going for F16. It probably will not get latest f18. Let us wait till first real delivery will show warming up and let us judge how well Indian are able to adapt western weapons. About Israel and India. Well. Israel needs cash. India needs weapons. That is all what is in the picture. Druv was also a big Israel and Indian co-operation. In the end even Israel went not for Druv and there were no significant exports besides free examples for Nepal and so called fake massive sell to Chile... We have to see how well India is adapting new technology and whether it can show real super power aspirations. Being able to become world worst speaking english helpdesk or software development desk doesn't mean it is a superpower. They do not wanna compare India with Pakistan but how in earth can one compare India with China? Look at the number of weapons and in particular Flankers... Look at the number of projects or export successes... I don't see India.

#14
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firstly i will clarify over here that Israel has leased Dhruv helicopters.

those Dhruvs are now flying also according to the news report i posted earlier.

Indian Air Force looks for newer fighters, more AWACs: Chief
New Delhi | February 13, 2006 10:15:06 AM IST

The Indian Air Force (IAF) plans to acquire more advanced fighters, sophisticated defence systems and smart long-range weapons as the country's "strategic boundaries have been redefined" by its growing energy needs and participation in disaster management operations, the air chief has said.
The IAF is looking for more top of the line fighters, airborne warning and control aircraft (AWAC) and mid-air refuellers as well as smart long-range weapons "to maximise effect and minimise the force required", Air Chief Marshal S.P. Tyagi said in an interview published in the inaugural issue of India Strategic magazine.

Tyagi said the current scenario "necessitated a strategic reach to safeguard our national interests".

The IAF has "plans to acquire more AWACs and multi-mission combat jets as well as other futuristic machines and equipment" to build up a surgical strike capability to neutralise a threat without collateral damage.

The IAF currently has six refuellers and has ordered three AWACs from Israel.

Tyagi was asked if the IAF's combat squadrons had come down to 29 from the publicly acknowledged figure of 39 a few years ago. He gave no figures but acknowledged that IAF's combat strength was progressively depleting and by 2007, a large number of MiG-21, MiG-23 and MiG-27 jets would be phased out.

Tyagi said "despite efforts, there have been delays in the procurement of modern combat aircraft and also of the indigenously built Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)".

However, "the problem is being compensated to some extent" by compressing the delivery schedule of the powerful Su-30 jets being built by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited and by the induction of force multipliers like mid-air refuellers and precision weapons.

Tyagi also pointed out that his force "has not expressed interest" in the US-made F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, which American forces will begin inducting from 2011.

"For the present, the (126) Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MRCAs) we are seeking meet the current qualitative force requirements," he said.

He said IAF had sought increased production of various aircraft from HAL and also ordered an additional squadron of upgraded MiG-21 jets, all of which would be fitted with the latest "beyond visual range" (BVR) missiles and electronic warfare suites.

According to published information, the IAF was to retain only about 125 of its 300 MiG-21s in its inventory. With the creation of an additional squadron, their figure should go up to around 145.

Tyagi said of the three variants of MiG-21, the older T77 is already being phased out, the T96 used in training and operational roles will be used till 2012 and the upgraded MiG-21bis will "remain in service till 2022-25".

As for the 126 jets that the IAF plans to buy, Tyagi said a "request for proposals" (RFP) to suppliers was likely to be issued "very soon" and they would be given six months to supply information. Once the choice is finalised, the first lot of about 20 jets would be acquired within 42 to 54 months and the rest would be made in India.

IAF is considering Lockheed Martin F-16, Boeing's F-18, Sweden's Gripen, Russia's MiG-29 and France's Mirage 2005 for this deal.

Tyagi also said his force needed a "sizeable fleet of multi-mission, aerial refuelling capable fighters, helicopters, transport aircraft and a strong air defence network" as well as "space and reconnaissance assets to obtain real-time and accurate battle space pictures and data".

The IAF was acquiring smart, long-range precision weapons while its upgraded its combat jets for "real-time network centric warfare".

Tyagi praised IAF pilots and other personnel for doing well both in exercises with foreign air forces and the massive disaster relief operations since the December 2004 tsunami.

News report here--http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=5465

#15
Munir

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BRF source? Here... I rest my case.

http://sify.com/news...php?id=14121086

Setback to India: Israel grounds Dhruv helicopter

Monday, 16 January , 2006, 16:58

Jerusalem: In a major setback to India’s ongoing efforts to market its advanced light helicopters, Dhruv, worldwide, Israel has decided to ground the fleet of ALHs it inducted to ferry VIPs and defence officials, barely weeks after the Indian armed forces did the same following a crash.


The Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI), which provided the avionics system for the international version of the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited’s ALH and has a joint marketing agreement of the product, said: "It operates in accordance with the manufacturers instructions and Civil Aviation Authority’s regulations," hinting at a possible HAL decision to withdraw.

Earlier this month, the Indian Armed Forces had decided to ground the ALHs following a technical advisory issued by the HAL after a Dhruv chopper crashed in Andhra Pradesh.

While efforts are on to promote the worldwide sale of the helicopter, the reports of the crash due to a severe malfunction seems to have forced the manufacturers to redesign the copters tail, a defence source said.

#16
Sachin

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mnier, the news report i gave also discussed that israel has grounded the dhruv. But it reads "Israel grounded its fleet of dhruv helicopters". i posted this after you said that israel doesnt have dhruv. israel has dhruvs and you got to give credit where its due. indian defence industry is not that bad.

again, have a look at this news "Advanced Light Helicopters airborne again: HAL they even flew in the Republic Day parade held on Jan 26 !

anyway, here is some more news--

ISRO tests Scramjet Technology
Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) has achieved another milestone by successfully conducting the test flight of Supersonic Combustion Scramjet. The seven second test flight was conducted at the Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre (VSSC) in Thiruvananthapuram on January 10.After the US and Australia, India is the third country to have successfully tested the Scramjet technology. The complete development of the Scramjet rocket technology will be achieved in the next few years. The test is considered a big achievement in Indian space programme as Scramjet is supposed to reduce the cost of space transportation by US$1,000 a kg of the payload. Unlike conventional system where the rockets have to carry both the fuel and oxygen, Scramjet carries only fuel and sucks in oxygen from the open environment to burn the fuel. It increases the rockets capacity to lift heavier satellites. It also increases the speed of the rocket which is three times more than the Supersonic Concorde, the fastest ever supersonic transport plane, at 4,560mph.


The Indian Ordnance Factory Board would be showcasing its INSAS series of rifles at the DEFEXPO India 2006. The INSAS family consists of the 5.56mm rifle and light machine gun (LMG) in foldable and fixed butt versions. The LMG weighs around 6.7kg which makes it easy for the troops to carry the gun. It can fire 650 rounds per minute and has an effective range of 700m. The foldable butt version has been produced to suit the requirements of the paratroopers. The other gun of the series would be the 5.56mm rifle that has been accepted as the standard rifle of the Indian army. The Royal Nepal Army had alleged that the gun was malfunctioning and had stopped using it. Dismissing the charges, Indian Army Chief Gen. J.J. Singh said, “The 5.56mm is a very capable gun. We are carrying out improvements in the gun which is a continuous process everywhere”. The gun weighs less than four kilos and has an effective range of 400m. All the rifles of the INSAS series have used plastic in the furniture of the gun. Both the guns of the series have a very low recoil energy which is less than 30 per cent of the earlier existing weapons in the army. Both the guns use the same ammunition and the 70 per cent commonality between both the guns offers inter-changeability of components and sub-assemblies.

The tank was inducted into the Indian Army early last year and the army and the DRDO are still conducting trials to test and improve the capabilities of the indigenously built tank. Clearing the doubts over the tank's capabilities,Gen. J.J. Singh said, “Arjun is a very capable tank and next month the army will carry out the trials of the tank to compare it with the T-72 and the MBT T-90S”. The claimed state of the art tank has a superior firepower which comes from the all weather fast target acquisition capability. It is fitted with a 120mm gun that has the capability to fire indigenously developed FSAPDS ammunition. The high performance engine, effective transmission system and the optimised running gear make Arjun one of the fastest tanks in the world. The MBT has all-round protection from anti-tank ammunition provided by the indigenously developed ‘Kanchan' armour. The army has already placed orders for 124 Arjun tanks for raising two new regiments.

‘For the Present, One BrahMos missile will be Fitted on Su-30Mki Without any Structural Modifications:’ Dr A. Sivathanu Pillai, Chief Controller, DRDO and CEO, BrahMos

India Space Research Organisation (ISRO) has entered into a joint deal with EADS Astrium (French) and European Space Consortium Arianespace. The deal plans to tap the commercial market for communication satellite. As a first step of the deal the Arianespace has passed on the launch of two 2.5 tonne-class satellites to ISRO. G. Madhavan Nair, chairman ISRO explained the deal as a very good mix of cost effectiveness and quality payload. In India, the cost of building a satellite and launch services are much lower than any where else and at the same time EADS Astrium is known for making quality payloads. Arianespace specialises in making big satellites of four to five tonne while India has the capability of developing small satellite. ISRO has developed the mechanism and has identified the required subsystems that can be integrated here in India. It hopes that in a year or two it would be able to successfully launch one or two satellite for these agencies.

News report here--http://www.forceindia.net/news.asp

#17
Munir

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Israel has indeed Druv but that was part of the original deal. India would buy Israeli avionics. Israel was allowed to market the chopper but had to buy few examples. There was a few time a discussion about that whether it was bought cause it is a very nice chopper or whether is was part of the contract. Latter was the conclusion. Israel just bought the civil version for VIP transport and never bought more then stated in the original contract. Do keep in mind that Israel is not buying something inferior. They are well known for their quality of components. Druv is Eurocopter with French engine, German assistance, Israeli avioncis and Indian labour. If Druv is all Indian then MKI should be also real Indian.

Don't know whether you have actually seen Druv but I have talked to the pilots and engineers and actually sat in Druv for a few minutes. Have seen the demo more then once. One thing should be added. Those pilots and engineers were superb. Nice people to talk with.

#18
SyedA

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Sachin

if we want to read about indian made hardware we can simply go to BR and read it, please stop posting information which we already know how to get to.

#19
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Israel and india have entered into agreement on dhruv that india will manufacture it, and israel will market it.
Initially, dhruv had indigenous indian avionics but israeli avionics were added later and dhruv will be exported with israeli avionics. this was done because israeli avionics were better.

but naval dhruv has quite some indigenous avionics as can be seen here

german company Mbb gave some design consultancy only to dhruv about 20 years ago when eurocopter company wasnt formed and the first eurocopter was probably on drawing board only.

dhruv is not like ching-kuo fighter of taiwan, where entire contract was given to Lockheed martin. it can be somewhat like fc-1, where MiG industry helped in design of fc-1.

the shakti engine of dhruv is an enhancement of the turbomeca engine. it was enhanced as a jv between india and france. thats why it has a different name in india and france.

mnier you must have sat in dhruv in paris air-show of 2005. you are more priveleged than many indians like me who have only seen dhruv on TV :) .

you can refer to dhruv here

SyedA, br is only redirecting to news-report which i posted like times of india, the hindu.etc. it does not have own reports. also, my last post was from Force magazine.

#20
SSAAD

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Syed's point is that there is no need to post entire articles about Indian defence industry, affairs etc. People are aware that this stuff is available on the web. If you are linking an article to make a specific point, that is different, however inundating the thread with countless articles has little value.




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