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Secret behind India-US honey moon

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I do want to caveat the above article about BD diaspora with very reasonable and applicable comments from a reader.  Would be good to hear from the UK based members on how they see things first hand (perhaps we move this to a different thread altogether?):

 

IJAZ

MAR 11, 2015 07:20PM

I think it is a serious issue and does not merit some of the infantile comments that one see here. 

In reality the picture is far more complex. If you analyse further, as my son did for a research project you will find that Pakistanis (excluding those from AJK) had a higher percentage at university, higher mean incomes and more home ownership than the indigenous UK population. Both Indians and Pakistanis are doing equally well in this regard. 

However, a large proportion of the Pak diaspora in UK is from Mirpur and AJK who sadly are not doing so well, especially in the run down former industrial mill towns and cities of the Northern England. But then having said that neither is much of the indigenous population. 

Non AJK Pakistanis and Indians tended to settle further South and especially in London where all the performance metrics for all communities are relatively high. Pakistanis in Scotland for example are doing extremely well and better than all other communities. Bengalis have settled overwhelmingly in East London.

Therefore there are two issues here: -

  1. The lack of investment in towns and cities in the North of England and the lop sided UK housing market which distorts wealth. 

  2. Intrinsic issues within the AJK community. The AJK community is more likely to regard their county of origin as home far more than any other community. Hence there is always a sense of looking back. 

It would help enormously if people tried to analyse and understand important research rather than reverting to the purile and stale bigotry of "my country is better than yours"

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Posted · Report post

 

I do want to caveat the above article about BD diaspora with very reasonable and applicable comments from a reader.  Would be good to hear from the UK based members on how they see things first hand (perhaps we move this to a different thread altogether?):

 

IJAZ

MAR 11, 2015 07:20PM

I think it is a serious issue and does not merit some of the infantile comments that one see here. 

In reality the picture is far more complex. If you analyse further, as my son did for a research project you will find that Pakistanis (excluding those from AJK) had a higher percentage at university, higher mean incomes and more home ownership than the indigenous UK population. Both Indians and Pakistanis are doing equally well in this regard. 

However, a large proportion of the Pak diaspora in UK is from Mirpur and AJK who sadly are not doing so well, especially in the run down former industrial mill towns and cities of the Northern England. But then having said that neither is much of the indigenous population. 

Non AJK Pakistanis and Indians tended to settle further South and especially in London where all the performance metrics for all communities are relatively high. Pakistanis in Scotland for example are doing extremely well and better than all other communities. Bengalis have settled overwhelmingly in East London.

Therefore there are two issues here: -

  1. The lack of investment in towns and cities in the North of England and the lop sided UK housing market which distorts wealth. 

  2. Intrinsic issues within the AJK community. The AJK community is more likely to regard their county of origin as home far more than any other community. Hence there is always a sense of looking back. 

It would help enormously if people tried to analyse and understand important research rather than reverting to the purile and stale bigotry of "my country is better than yours"

 

 

I would recommend this article. It provides some good analysis.

 

Breaking out
 
In Britain, Bangladeshis have overtaken Pakistanis. Credit the poor job market when they arrived and the magical effect of London
 

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I would recommend this article. It provides some good analysis.

 

Breaking out
 
In Britain, Bangladeshis have overtaken Pakistanis. Credit the poor job market when they arrived and the magical effect of London
 

 

 

And, at the rate things are going.. The Bangladeshi economy will soon overtake Pakistan economy, if Pakistan does not sort herself out.. It's probably the shock that Pakistan needs??

 

Pakistan :

$270 billion (nominal, 2016)[2]

$982 billion (PPP, 2016) [3]

GDP growth : 4.71%

 

Bangladesh :

$226.7 billion (nominal; 2016)[1]

$628.3 billion (PPP; 2016)[1]7

GDP growth : 6.5%
 
15 years is how i calculate it for the nominal value.Think about..

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Posted · Report post

 

I do want to caveat the above article about BD diaspora with very reasonable and applicable comments from a reader.  Would be good to hear from the UK based members on how they see things first hand (perhaps we move this to a different thread altogether?):

 

IJAZ

MAR 11, 2015 07:20PM

I think it is a serious issue and does not merit some of the infantile comments that one see here. 

In reality the picture is far more complex. If you analyse further, as my son did for a research project you will find that Pakistanis (excluding those from AJK) had a higher percentage at university, higher mean incomes and more home ownership than the indigenous UK population. Both Indians and Pakistanis are doing equally well in this regard. 

However, a large proportion of the Pak diaspora in UK is from Mirpur and AJK who sadly are not doing so well, especially in the run down former industrial mill towns and cities of the Northern England. But then having said that neither is much of the indigenous population. 

Non AJK Pakistanis and Indians tended to settle further South and especially in London where all the performance metrics for all communities are relatively high. Pakistanis in Scotland for example are doing extremely well and better than all other communities. Bengalis have settled overwhelmingly in East London.

Therefore there are two issues here: -

  1. The lack of investment in towns and cities in the North of England and the lop sided UK housing market which distorts wealth. 

  2. Intrinsic issues within the AJK community. The AJK community is more likely to regard their county of origin as home far more than any other community. Hence there is always a sense of looking back. 

It would help enormously if people tried to analyse and understand important research rather than reverting to the purile and stale bigotry of "my country is better than yours"

 

 

These comments are valid and relevant.  Its true that the majority of Pakistanis who settled in the north of England were from the AJK, mirpur region, with a great number being displaced after the building of mangla dam, although this wasn't the only reason for them ending up in England.  The comments are also true that the demise of the traditional industries in the north, the reason for which people moved here (textiles/manufacturing) has affected migrants disproportionately when compared to those who settled in the south east.  

 

I think its also true that a generation or two (children born in the UK to AJK/mirpur migrant parents) has been lost with respect to education, which, for a number of reasons wasn't given the prominence it deserved.  The positive is that it's no longer the case - there is a concerted effort by second and third generation families to educate their children or for them to learn a trade rather than ending up in the traditional self employed industries (taxi/takeaway etc) - naturally this means playing catch up to those who, rightly gave education the priority and prominence it deserved. 

 

The area in which i lgrew up was and is predominantly mirpuri/pakistani (my parents settled here in the 60s) and people have concentrated themselves for economic and social reasons - this too is changing as people get better jobs/education and move to more affluent and middle class areas but this takes time and there is a recognition that education plays a significant part in making this happen.  I personally think it will take time but we'll get there and living in England has one very large benefit - this being merit - naturally there is racism but on the whole, merit counts and appointments are based on this and this alone.

 

Hope this helps in your understanding.

 

ndad

p.s. this discussion certainly needs moving - overseas Pakistanis thread?

Hafeez, SSAAD and yasser like this

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Posted · Report post

A very truthful article by an indian - at last.

https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/international/2017/06/09/modis-blunders-unprecedented-in-indias-foreign-policy-history-russia-visit

Modi’s blunders unprecedented in India’s foreign policy history

His frequent visits to foreign shores have brought the following to India: Rebuke from Trump, Moscow warming up to Pakistan and the Sino-Pakistan axis getting stronger than ever

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Posted (edited) · Report post

US is already using its call girl to show her fangs to China - Good for both US and Endia that's how it will work out eventually.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/top-stories/us-will-need-india-to-counter-china-us-think-tank.html

 

Even as the Trump administration is cosying up to the Chinese, the US will need India to counter Beijing's growing influence in the world, a top American think-tank has said.

 
Describing India as a "key piece in the jigsaw" for the US, the Atlantic Council urged the Trump administration to prioritise its ties with New Delhi.
Edited by Gul Khan

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India/Bhat had announced anew revised cold start doctrine wrapped in Army's new Land ware doctrine.

https://www.defencenewsindia.com/indian-army-announces-new-land-warfare-doctrine/

 

It comes with surety from the U.S, Russia, and France that  at the time of need all these countries will keep the supply chain open

Edited by H Khan
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Posted · Report post

Yeah ... all the article talks about is the conclusion of indian army's strategic planning based on the Cold Start doctrine. There is no mention of Russia, France or America guaranteeing supply chain in war time.

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India seems to be doubling down on Cold Start.  They are doing this despite the development of Nasr missile (tactical nukes), their ability to sustain warfare for longer than Pakistan can, as well as the longer time it will take to mobilize their forces, giving away the element of surprise.

Are they desperate, being foolhardy, or is there reason to suspect that they have a winning strategy?  Can IBGs make any headway without air superiority?  If Nasr does not deter them, would not a few stealth fighters deny them air superiority?

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The biggest advantage the indians have, and which Pakistan has no answer for, is their supersonic cruise missile, BrahMos. With such a weapon, any half decent military tactician would open the Cold Start doctrine with limited,met carefully targeted BrahMos strikes on key Pakistan Military installations, before the Cold Start effectively kicks in. Pakistan Military doesn't have any credible ADN which could minimize the effects of a BrahMos strike. Best possible strategy would be to station majority of its fighter fleet deep on the Western borders in Baluchistan province. And conduct counter strikes, air defense and maritime strikes from there. The only thing stopping the indians from using such tactics is that Pakistan would retaliate with a barrage of tactical nukes. Of course the whole point of conventional weapons in the nuclear age is to negate the opportunity to the adversary, to launch its nukes. Used correctly, BrahMos can achieve just that. 

Now I am no expert, but common sense tells me that if this is the balance of the equation. Then Pakistan, which has had decades of experience in developing ballistic missiles, and who is in the process of mastering MIRV technology. Should, as a logical consequence, begin to start exploring at least the design feasibility of "Hypersonic" weapons system. Because the Good Lord knows, that between Pakistan and india, who is more apt and competent to achieve this technology, it would be Pakistan. And no time is better than the present. Along with nuclear submarine and MIRV technology, HGVs is the next frontier Pakistan must conquer and attain mastery over. We have the experience, we have the personnel and we have the will to do it. So it is important, like with countless examples set by our people, achieve success in those technologies which give us the edge, on a realistic basis and in the appropriate given time. Attaining this technological edge over india, is critical to maintaining a credible deterrent against the enemy.

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Posted · Report post

Does HQ-9 provide a fair amount of protection against Brahmos?

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Does HQ-9 provide a fair amount of protection against Brahmos?

BrahMos is a land, sea and air launched "Supersonic Cruise Missile." HQ-9 can intercept BrahMos, considering that HQ-9 has TVC for mid-flight corrections. However, Block-lll BrahMos are maneuverable at supersonic speeds, which officially is between Mach 2.8 to Mach 3. Whereas HQ-9 is specified intercept speed to be at Mach 4. And while this may alleviate some fears, it's not going to be enough for Pakistan. Reason for that is because BrahMos-2 is slated for development as "hypersonic" missile. Which could create a world problems for us, where a maneuverable Hypersonic BrahMos would take more than a handful for an HQ-9 to handle. Depending on the salvo count, inertial speed, azimuth and so on, HQ-9 would need to engage with a volley of missiles if it hopes for any success in intercepting the missiles. Another specific feature of this weapon, is its ability discriminate between targets and dummies. And even though this capability is a tall claim, but with Russia as partner in this program, I wouldn't doubt this or any other capability claimed by india about BrahMos. 

So you see, it's not a pretty picture. Even though we are in the process of attaining MIRV capability. It is equally imperative that we look into developing a comprehensive hypersonic missile program. And this would require a whole world of help from the likes of China and/or Russia. Our biggest disadvantage, and perhaps one of the main reasons why Pakistan Military (just an educated guess) isn't so keen on building up a proper ADN. Is due to the lack strategic geographical depth of our territory. Best case scenario, is Baluchistan, where the geographical depth is appreciable. Realistically, if we are to focus on establishing a proper ADN, that would take time and money, and would be a "half a pie" solution. The only way to beat down india into submission, is by developing our own hypersonic weapons, which are maneuverable, and perhaps (dare to be ambitious) go as far as developing HGV warheads for our MIRV program. That would redress the absence of parity, that we are on the verge of losing. 

 

Edited by Nasr
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Posted · Report post

agree with comments here: it is important to have a reasonable defense to the hypersonic Brahmos, but thats not going to be deterrent enough: there would have to be a retaliatory threat for India to be deterred or India will resort to the 21st century flavor of attacker vs. defender scenario.

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