JF-17 Related Discussion – Jan ~ Dec 2019

34 posts in this topic

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Happy New Year everyone!

It is good to see that forum is back on-line and hopefully will gain some momentum in coming weeks/months. Let me post my first question. 

Waiting for Block 3 is like waiting for the new season of Game of Thrones. :). Do we have any updates on Block 3 release date? I heard rumors about late summer or early fall of 2019. 

Cheers

TKhan likes this

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Posted · Report post

Happy New Year everyone!

It is good to see that forum is back on-line and hopefully will gain some momentum in coming weeks/months. Let me post my first question. 

Waiting for Block 3 is like waiting for the new season of Game of Thrones. :). Do we have any updates on Block 3 release date? I heard rumors about late summer or early fall of 2019. 

Cheers

All indications seem to suggest that a prototype will fly in summer 2019.

 

Aziz

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Posted · Report post

Is this news really credible?  There is a thread on the other forum regarding this being fake news:

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf17-6-and-jf20-are-self-made-models-for-military-enthusiasts.594338/

A light weight fighter such has JF-17 does not have enough internal weapon space.  Carrying weapons outside would negate stealth.

But on the other hand, Chinese reveal things in stages like this.

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Posted · Report post

It was discussed on the Chinese Defense Forum and was dismissed as Fan Made after much debate.

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Posted · Report post

Would a fan actually go to the extent of making 3D models like this?  It is possible but there may be something to this news.

Nasr likes this

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Posted · Report post

Happy New Year everyone!

It is good to see that forum is back on-line and hopefully will gain some momentum in coming weeks/months. Let me post my first question. 

Waiting for Block 3 is like waiting for the new season of Game of Thrones. :). Do we have any updates on Block 3 release date? I heard rumors about late summer or early fall of 2019. 

Cheers

​An educated guess is end of 2019.

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Posted · Report post

Assalamoalaikum.

On sister forum, there was a nice discussion on somewhat fake news of PAF acquiring LD-10 missiles. I think the idea is nice one if these can be integrated to gunships like MI-35 or a stealth UCAV. As far as integration into JF-17 is concerned, I think MAR-1 can do its job better inshaAllah, both missiles fitting into somehow diferent strategies of SEAD/DEAD. Having multiple solutions for one problem is always better.

 

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Posted · Report post

Pakistan already has LD-10. LD-10 and MAR 1 are configured for JL-17, Mirage has been configured for MAR1

Sir how about integrating them into gunship helicopters? I mean they can fly very low and at suitable range, can release them. Once the Air defence assets are destroyed, rest can be taken out by aircrafts.

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Posted · Report post

Pakistan already has LD-10. LD-10 and MAR 1 are configured for JL-17, Mirage has been configured for MAR1

Sir how about integrating them into gunship helicopters? I mean they can fly very low and at suitable range, can release them. Once the Air defence assets are destroyed, rest can be taken out by aircrafts.

​Well, figure out how to install a radar or ther guidance system you'll do it.

asfanyarahmad likes this

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Assalamoalaikum.

We already know the class of our JF-17 on basis of MTOW. Now, we also know that it has replaced every A-5s and older F-7s. The remaining left ones are FT-7s and F-7PGs. Now the F-7PGs have surely got much much life left to remain operational. 

Now please take into notice the Mirages. They are not of the same class as JF-17s. But they are becoming flying coffins and need replacement.

The indians have somehow surprised us with Tejas mark 2 design feature, though we don't know when will it fly and when it will get FOC.

The militaries all over the world try to have a knowledge of the hostile's future programmes, so PAF must have known that before.

Pakistan's economy is certainly in bad shape, leading to failure to acquire more F-16s or other jets for replacement for mirages.

Keeping all these facts in mind, I want to ask from honourable members, can it be that the Block III is taking so much time because it is going to be something in the class of mirages as per MTOW?

Secondly, if not so, then won't it be better to start purchasing J-10Cs and after the full requirement for JF-17s is achieved, start developing the J-10Cs at PAC so as to replace all the mirages and then finally the F-7PGs gradually, as well as replacing older F-16s too?

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Posted · Report post

As ever, funds are the problem.

PAF seems to be concentrating on jf17 blk 3 with the first prototype expected to be ready by the end of 2019.

Under the pti govt the economy will start growing at 6% plus from 2021/22, until then the jf-17 and picking up second hand f16s seem to be the plan with  project azm following later in the decade.

A word on the tejas as the Indians on BR  have been crowing about it this week:-

1. The Indians have consistently had to invent new terms to mask the failure of the project IOC -1, IOC -2. Interim FOC (granted this month) however full FOC will not be until later this year as the tejas has not fired its gun. “Interim final operation clearance” seems like an absurd term.

2. Tejas mk1a will only fly in prototype form in 2022 but that is only if it is ordered by the IAF this year. Considering the collective incompetence of DRDO and HAL we would expect them to comfortably miss any deadlines.

3.  Tejas mk2 is a very different plane to mk1 with extended length and canards. The fact they have to radically change the design speaks for itself. They are currently saying first flight will be 2026 but again their ability to meet timelines is highly questionable - even if they did meet the deadline I would not expect IOC of mk2 for at least 4 years after first flight so we are looking until at least 2030 until service entry. It will basically be the last 4th generation fighter to enter service anywhere in the world.

Aziz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

asfanyarahmad, A Khan, ndad and 1 other like this

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Posted · Report post

Asfan,

The older Mirages are retired & serving as gate guardians. Most of the remaining aircraft are upgraded and will soldier on for few more years till JF-17 Block-III production kicks in to gear. I believe PAF will try to avoid inducting J-10C, and use whatever funds it has on Block III production along with Project Azm. The Block III MTOW is not known yet.

For Tejas MK2 you are looking at 2030 production/induction timeframe, which keeping in mind HAL track record is very optimistic. 

     

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Posted · Report post

Thanks a lot to both of you, and as I can deduct from the reply, it seems the only logical choice apart from JF-17 Block III will be more and more used/upgraded F-16s. I think if I am not wrong, Aselsan does have a program for AESA radar. Would love to see that upgrade on our F-16s, and again, if I am not wrong, used F-16s do not require US approval for upgradation to AESA radar.

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Posted · Report post

Paf should have gone for 2 sqdns of FC-20 instead of inducting more f-16s , sounds little odd but it would have given Paf much more breathing space away from the  blackmail associated with F-16s and also confidently use fc20 to outclass anything in its inventory including F-16s.I m liking how FC20 is coming along real good.

 

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Thanks a lot to both of you, and as I can deduct from the reply, it seems the only logical choice apart from JF-17 Block III will be more and more used/upgraded F-16s. I think if I am not wrong, Aselsan does have a program for AESA radar. Would love to see that upgrade on our F-16s, and again, if I am not wrong, used F-16s do not require US approval for upgradation to AESA radar.

​Used F-16s' are the cheapest and fastest way to shore up the numbers, if geopolitics don't come in the way. In my view the best value for money is in upgrading the entire F-16 and JF-17 fleet to AESA.   

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Posted · Report post

Paf should have gone for 2 sqdns of FC-20 instead of inducting more f-16s , sounds little odd but it would have given Paf much more breathing space away from the  blackmail associated with F-16s and also confidently use fc20 to outclass anything in its inventory including F-16s.I m liking how FC20 is coming along real good.

 

​I believe the FC-20 overlapped too much with JF-17 in capability & it’s availability timeline was just off. JF-17 basically has the same avionics suite as J-10 and in future can also piggy back on any avionics or weapons advancement from that project. How did you think we managed to keep the cost of JF-17 so low:)

Abd-rehman Ali likes this

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Posted · Report post

Thanks a lot to both of you, and as I can deduct from the reply, it seems the only logical choice apart from JF-17 Block III will be more and more used/upgraded F-16s. I think if I am not wrong, Aselsan does have a program for AESA radar. Would love to see that upgrade on our F-16s, and again, if I am not wrong, used F-16s do not require US approval for upgradation to AESA radar.

​Used F-16s' are the cheapest and fastest way to shore up the numbers, if geopolitics don't come in the way. In my view the best value for money is in upgrading the entire F-16 and JF-17 fleet to AESA.   

The only technical constraints I can think of re upgrading the F-16 is aircraft age. But I suppose if we can one day access boneyard A/Bs then Turkey's MRO plant can help correct that issue.

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Posted · Report post

Asfan,

The older Mirages are retired & serving as gate guardians. Most of the remaining aircraft are upgraded and will soldier on for few more years till JF-17 Block-III production kicks in to gear. I believe PAF will try to avoid inducting J-10C, and use whatever funds it has on Block III production along with Project Azm. The Block III MTOW is not known yet.

For Tejas MK2 you are looking at 2030 production/induction timeframe, which keeping in mind HAL track record is very optimistic. 

     

Tejas Mk2 is will be a major redesign. That will take a minimum of 10 years, more like 15-20 given how DRDO works. But the problem is that they are working on Mk1A and have little time to work on other projects. So realistically we are looking at 2040. But then there is AMCA. Will they then skip that or skip Mk2?

asfanyarahmad likes this

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There were photos on the web showing the thunder testing a bomb with a range extension kit. I hope the press isn't confusing the two .

ndad

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Posted · Report post

It could be the H2 and H4 SOWs that were used to such good effect in Kashmir recently. 

In 2014 Raptor III was developed, apparently, with a turbofan rather than a rocket boost device. This may have a smaller ground clearance requirement, making it suitable for JF-17. 

Other improvements may include Beidou navigation and IIR sensor for terminal guidance rather than TV guidance.  Day and night capability is mentioned in the videos I have seen. 

Aliusman likes this

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