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Indian Air Force, News & Views - 2016


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#1
Usman S.

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Old thread is here: http://www.pakdef.or...ews-views-2015/
 


There is a special Providence in the fall of a sparrow, if it be now, "tis not to come, if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be now, yet it will come, the readiness is all. [Hamlet]


#2
Khalid A.

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http://www.oneindia....nt-1970986.html

Guess what? The all singing all dancing limited capability aircraft only recently managed to pull 8G, even though the indians have been barking for years it is a 9G aircraft. Better late than never I guess, and even then it was most likely due to making sure it can pull tight turns for the Bahrain airshow. JF-17 achieved 8.5G limit a long time ago.


OneIndia Exclusive: Tejas pilots pull 8 ‘g’ and beyond clearing critical FOC point

Mysuru, Jan 01: India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas cleared one of the most critical flight test parameters in the programme, when the pilots pulled 8 'g' (limit of envelope) during its ongoing test flights in Bengaluru. By doing so, it has cleared a key point towards the Final Operational Clearance (FOC), as mandated by the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Sources told OneIndia that Tejas pilots pulled 8 ‘g' and beyond a couple of times during trials held in the last fortnight of December. Commodore Jaideep Maolonkar, Chief Test Pilot at National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) and Group Capt Rangachari, a Test Pilot of NFTC achieved this critical task taking the fighter closer to the FOC. Interestingly, officials at the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO), Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) were tight-lipped about this major milestone achieved. As reported by OneIndia earlier, scientists and engineers are now engaged in last-minute preparations to take Tejas for the 4th edition of Bahrain International Air Show (BIAS-2016), being held from January 21-23 at the Sakhir Airbase. This will be Tejas' first official outing outside India to participate in a flying demonstration.

Fighter can now perform combat maneuvers "The 8 'g' is the limit of the flight envelope which permits aircraft to perform combat maneuvers. This will enable the pilots to do tight turns. They have demonstrated it a couple of times. The pilots are comfortable and aircraft behaved itself," a source said. As this piece goes live on New Year's Day, the Tejas programme has so far (from 2001) logged 3031 flights (1938 hours) with nearly 15 variants joining the programme at different stages. Though Tejas skipped the December 2015 deadline for attaining the FOC, the year otherwise was a satisfying one with the first Series Production aircraft (SP1) being handed over to IAF during early January.

Being a weapon platform, Tejas has to perform in extreme climatic conditions. Therefore the vigorous testing pursued at Leh (-20deg C) and at Jaiselmer (+40deg C) concludes the aircraft can perform in almost all weather conditions effortlessly. Very few aircraft can demonstrate such capabilities," claims the source.
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#3
yasser

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They signed the Raf deal finally. After 15 years of Bollywood tamasha it was along the same lines as the Mirage 2000 deal in the 80s. No TOT, No "made in India", no big production.

 

The joke continues....


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#4
mominkhan

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What happened about the offset clause?
Musalmaan ko musalmaan kar diya, toofan-i maghrib nay
talatum-ha'ay darya he say hai gohar ki sairaabi
--M. Iqbal

#5
yasser

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No idea



#6
mominkhan

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Initially it was $12 billion for 126 planes, now $10 billion for 36.  Great going!  I bet offsets have been factored in.

 

Why India's Deal For 36 Rafale Fighter Jets Is Still Being Negotiated

 

All India | Reported by Vishnu Som | Updated: January 14, 2016 19:08 IST

 

dassault-rafale-650-best-shot_650x400_71

The twin-engine Rafale combat jet is designed from the beginning as a multi-role fighter for air-to-air and air-to-ground attack, is nuclear-capable.

 

NEW DELHI:  With just days to go before French President Francois Hollande arrives in India, a crucial deal for Delhi to buy 36 French-built Rafale warplanes has not yet been decided.

Speaking to Reuters today, the French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said that the deal remains evasive, underscoring the considerable differences between negotiators for both sides, nearly nine months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi visited Paris and announced the plans to buy the fighter jets directly from the French government following the collapse of a larger commercial deal with Dassault Aviation.

NDTV has learned that the all-in price is likely to be in the range of 65,000 crores or nearly $10 billion, which includes the cost of 36 fighter jets in fly-away condition, weapon systems, and a support maintenance package. India still needs to decide whether it will immediately fund a large order of all spare parts that the aircraft will need for a period of either five or ten years. Both sides are also in talks on the financial penalties the French manufacturer of the jet would incur for unsatisfactory performance - that is, if the Rafale is operationally not available at least 90 per cent of the time that it is required to fly a sortie. This is a key concern for the Indian Air Force since its frontline Russian-designed Sukhoi 30 MKI jet has an abysmal availability rate of under 60 per cent, which means the air force doesn't have enough Sukhois operational when it needs them. India has also still not finalized the total number and exact type of weapon systems that would come with the Rafale - a key component of the overall cost of the package.
 
dassault-rafale-2-planes-650_650x400_414
President Hollande arrives will be in India from January 25 to 27 (he lands in Chandigarh and will be the Chief Guest at the Republic Day parade).

New rules in India state that defence deals over 300 crores must be accompanied by investing 30 per cent of the value of the contract in manufacturing in India. France has reportedly agreed in principle to that stipulation "in the future", a move that has helped both sides side-step this potentially contentious requirement for the moment.   

Indian military officials have warned their air force risks a major capability gap with China and Pakistan without new western warplanes, or if local defence contractors cannot produce what the military needs in a timely manner. In October, the government turned down the military's request to expand the acquisition of 36 Dassault-built fighter planes to plug vital gaps, nudging it to accept an indigenous combat plane.
 
dassault-rafale-650-cockpit_650x400_7145

Cockpit of the Dassault Rafale fighter

It could take more than a year for India to actually start acquiring the Rafale jets once the contract is signed since manufacturer Dassault is already constructing the state-of-the-art fighter for the French Air Force and Egypt and Qatar which have recently signed contracts to acquire the planes. However, France has reportedly offered to help India, a strategic partner, acquire the jets as early as possible though it is unclear whether that would mean the French Air Force deferring acquisition of its own Rafale fighters or, alternately, loaning India a handful of fighters it already has in service till Dassault is ready to deliver the Rafales ordered by Delhi.
Story First Published: January 14, 2016 15:57 IST

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Musalmaan ko musalmaan kar diya, toofan-i maghrib nay
talatum-ha'ay darya he say hai gohar ki sairaabi
--M. Iqbal

#7
FaisalK

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The IAF price isn't too far off from what Egypt and Qatar paid per plane, $233 and $270 respectively. Just goes to show how expensive French equipment is compared to new Su-35s, which China bought for $80mn a piece. Even the Gripen NG can be had for $130mn a unit (Brazil), and F-16V shouldn't be far off from $100mn either.
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#8
yasser

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This is great news for Pakistan. One of the world's largest air forces operating just 36 of one type of plane. This is unheard of, even in PAF.

 

If that is all they buy this could end up as one of the costliest blunders in procurment history. Especially as rest of the world, including PAF, will be eyeing up 5th Gen fighters post 2020. India will still be paying through the nose for these planes and the French will have a a field day charging them for spares and weapons for the next 30 years.

 

By then I imagine most of our weapons will be being built in house


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#9
mominkhan

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I just don't see this deal happening. Bania has no money and wants Rafales for free.

First they wanted to hold France responsible for delays in production by Indians. All Indians had to do, was to delay production, impose penalties and the Rafales would be free. Do they think French are stupid?

Now they want they want to impose penalties on the French if Rafales don't have 90% availability, when Indians are maintaining them. Do they still think French are stupid?

In India, not even Bhagwan has 90% availability. He gets substituted by other gods.


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Musalmaan ko musalmaan kar diya, toofan-i maghrib nay
talatum-ha'ay darya he say hai gohar ki sairaabi
--M. Iqbal

#10
yasser

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 really hope they do it. Would be much worse for us if they spent $10 Billion on more SU-30s or used Mirages 2000. This way that get very little bang per buck for a huge outlay. 

 

To put it in perspective, $10 Billion would get us around 100 Block 52s.



#11
mominkhan

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Or 300+ JF-17 Block III with AESA.


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Musalmaan ko musalmaan kar diya, toofan-i maghrib nay
talatum-ha'ay darya he say hai gohar ki sairaabi
--M. Iqbal

#12
FaisalK

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If the Indians buy the Rafale, then I doubt we'll see much in the way of 5th generation fighters. They managed to tick off the Russians by backing away from FGFA, the F-35 isn't a panacea, and their indigenous route is a path to hell. When the time comes they'll probably settle for a small off the shelf purchase of KFX.

Not that it matters, FC-31 is based on JF-17, which is just an upgraded F-7, which in turn is inferior to MiG-21bis. Therefore, MiG-21bis is superior to FC-31.
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#13
mominkhan

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What is bringing down the IAF is their own hubris that they are some kind of superpower and can "penalize" the French. The French will string them along till IAF squadron strength falls below 25. Then the bania will panic and agree to every French condition and more.
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Musalmaan ko musalmaan kar diya, toofan-i maghrib nay
talatum-ha'ay darya he say hai gohar ki sairaabi
--M. Iqbal

#14
Gaf

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I just don't see this deal happening. Bania has no money and wants Rafales for free.

 

Bania has the money, look at their FX reserves, GDP and inward investments. Money is not the problem. The problem with Bania is they are tight and are acting like they are buying a bag of oranges from the street vendor on one of their streets and the French are having none of it.....


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#15
Gul Khan

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Bania has the money, look at their FX reserves, GDP and inward investments. Money is not the problem. The problem with Bania is they are tight and are acting like they are buying a bag of oranges from the street vendor on one of their streets and the French are having none of it.....

 

 

Bania has no money,  if it trys to bring down "below the poverty line"  using intel. standards than trust me it is a 3rd world beggar like the rest.

 

As we speak it has twice as more poor and is compared to sub saharan Africa.


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#16
SSAAD

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I think we are underestimating the Indians' desire to be "seen" as a world power.  This tendency is stronger than the penchant to save money or drive a hard bargain.  The French will get their terms but Indians will certainly place follow on orders.  They liked the M2K but back then could not afford it in greater numbers given their lackluster economy.  With significant room to borrow now, they are no longer constrained and given the desire to be seen as a major power, will make the purchases.

 

Its an issue of psyche where you are willing to spend whatever (whether you can afford it or not) to be seen/perceived differently.

 

The Indians have long held that M2K was their most successful contemporary fighter platform (despite the talking up of the MKI), as it provides a very good capability and very high serviceability.  They are looking to build on that with the Rafale. 



#17
FaisalK

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I think we are underestimating the Indians' desire to be "seen" as a world power. This tendency is stronger than the penchant to save money or drive a hard bargain. The French will get their terms but Indians will certainly place follow on orders. They liked the M2K but back then could not afford it given their lackluster economy. With significant room to borrow now, they are no longer constrained and given the desire to be seen as a major power, will make the purchases.

Its an issue of psyche where you are willing to spend whatever (whether you can afford it or not) to be seen/perceived differently.

The Indians have long held that M2K was their most successful contemporary fighter platform (despite the talking up of the MKI), as it provides a very good capability and very high serviceability. They are looking to build on that with the Rafale.

It's not the IAF's vision at fault, but the reality of Indian democracy which is holding the IAF down. The IN has managed to overcome it, but the myriad of internal actors with interests can harm programs, eg HAL. Dassault would gladly transfer tech, but they'd rather work with India's private sector, not HAL. India can overcome this, but it could be a serious up hill fight.

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#18
ARMalik

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I think to some extent it is also their big corporations like Tata holding them back because they always want piece of the pie.

#19
mominkhan

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As expected, this deal is going nowhere fast. Bania can't part with his money.

Money Ballast Keeps Rafales on Runway


By Pradip R Sagar
Published: 17th Jan 2016 10:40:07 AM


NEW DELHI: With barely a week left for the arrival of French President Francois Hollande in the national capital, a crucial deal to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets from France has hit turbulence.

Nine months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced in Paris India’s plans to buy the fighter aircraft directly from the French government, officials of the finance wing of the Ministry of Defence are worried about the high costs of the warplanes, which has turned out to be the way above their calculations.

According to officials, the 36 jets will cost $12 billion and will include aircraft in fly-away condition, weapon systems and a maintenance support package.

In December, the Cost Negotiation Committee (CNC) completed other parts of the deal, but price negotiations are ongoing. “Contract cost of the 36 Rafale has reached approximately $12 billion under flyway condition with weapon systems and a maintenance support package. It is way beyond our anticipated calculations. Efforts are on to negotiate it,” a source privy to the development told The Sunday Standard.

Sources added that after the CNC submits its report, the deal will require clearance from the Ministry of Finance ministry and a final nod from the Cabinet Committee on Security before being signed by the two sides. However, sources maintained that in any Inter-Government Agreement (IGA), prices are always expected to be about 2-3 per cent higher than competitive bidding.

According to a key agreement, France has agreed to 30 per cent offsets in the Rafale deal, which means French companies like Dassault—which manufactures the Rafales—will have to plough 30 per cent of the contract value back into India as offsets.

“During the earlier 126 Rafale jets deal with Dassault of $20 billion, the defence ministry had asked for a 50 per cent offset clause. But now the offset has been reduced to 30 per cent because we are buying only 36 under fly-away condition,” a source said.

The Ministry of Defence had constituted the CNC, headed by Air Marshal SBP Sinha, to hold negotiations with the French team, which was scheduled to be completed by July. Now, the ministry is desperate to complete the negotiations as early possible, but the objection raised by the finance wing are turning out to be main hurdle. Both sides have negotiated that after finalising the deal, the fighters will be supplied to India within three years.

The depleting combat strength of the Indian Air Force (IAF) has been a cause of concern as it is down to 34 fighter squadrons against an authorised strength of 42. IAF is getting four squadrons of Su-30 and subsequently, the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas is expected to fill the critical requirement of the air force. However, the combat feasibility of Tejas is still years away.

As per an estimated calculation, IAF plans to retire four squadrons of MiG-21M, five squadrons of MiG-27M and one squadron of MiG-21 Bison aircraft in 2017, losing 10 squadrons in one year, severely shrinking its increasingly vintage fighter aircraft fleet.
Musalmaan ko musalmaan kar diya, toofan-i maghrib nay
talatum-ha'ay darya he say hai gohar ki sairaabi
--M. Iqbal

#20
yasser

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Wow! Just wow! What an amazing clusterf**k.

 

If they are going to retire 10 sqds next year that will put them at around the same size as PAF!!!!!






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